^Terrible news. Downtown Cincy and Over-the-Rhine are tailor made for a streetcar system. Maybe the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis can take some notes from them on what NOT to do when trying to get a streetcar project built.
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I was pretty upset when I heard this as well. I also read that their downtown Sak's is packing it up for the burbs. I feel sorry for those guys. What I don't think the conservatives understand is that the choice of a city is also essentially a consumer choice. As a young, highly educated young professional, I have a pretty healthy degree of choice in where to live. If I lived in Cincinnati when this happened I would seriously consider leaving the city because I would perceive it as moving backwards instead of forwards and I want to live in a progressive city. This sends a terrible message to the creative class and they're going to suffer because of it. Smh.
Cincy has done it again! Did you know the largest abandoned subway system in the USA is there too? It is an amazing story. Almost completed back in the 1920's - halted and laying there today. What a disgrace now and then!
from Wikipedia:
"It is recognized as the largest abandoned subway tunnel in the United States.[1] Construction took place in the early twentieth century, but the project was not completed so it never hosted a paying customer.[2]
The project has been described as "one of the city's biggest embarrassments,"[3] and "one of Cincinnati's biggest failures."
from Wikipedia:
"It is recognized as the largest abandoned subway tunnel in the United States.[1] Construction took place in the early twentieth century, but the project was not completed so it never hosted a paying customer.[2]
The project has been described as "one of the city's biggest embarrassments,"[3] and "one of Cincinnati's biggest failures."
It's just proof that Censornati actually lives up to its reputation as being stiflingly conservative compared to its peer cities. After all, the citizens of Cincinnati actually voted these extremist nuts into office. That would never happen in St. Louis or Pittsburgh. Yet they rule the roost in Cincy. I'd definitely be packing my bags if I lived there.
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We should roll out the welcome mat for any refugees seeking safe haven.
This is obviously an embarrassment for Cincy, but transit or not, they are making some incredible strides in terms of urban redevelopment and investment in their urban core. Cincy and St. Louis have a lot to learn from each other.
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Hearing about Cincinnati never fails to make me feel slightly better. Although their MSA is smaller (2.2 million vs. our 2.9 million) and they should be proud to have tried to build a subway, something about us not having built and then abandoned a subway system warms my heart. Poor Cincy.
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I hope they're successful, but since they probably won't be, maybe the funding they lose can later be allocated to...St. Louis.
What's the update on the loop trolley? Last I heard The Feds were threatening to pull funds if stuff didn't get done soon
Cincy will always have the view of downtown from northern KY to hang over everybody's head (that line is used by most people in my experience trying to claim Cincy as a "better" "more vibrant" city).
If you were a proud Cincinnati resident, would you guys really pack up and leave after news like this? Wouldn't that behavior go against what we promote? Aren't we always calling people out for bailing on urban cores? Looking at what we gave up for the Arch is just as much of a reminder of urban sacrifice and that can't even take refuge in the subterranean safety of "out of sight, out of mind."
I remember while in college in Cincy, I was introduced to the vestigial downtown subway system by a guy who told me a developer was trying to access and reopen the lines to connect underground nightclubs.
If you were a proud Cincinnati resident, would you guys really pack up and leave after news like this? Wouldn't that behavior go against what we promote? Aren't we always calling people out for bailing on urban cores? Looking at what we gave up for the Arch is just as much of a reminder of urban sacrifice and that can't even take refuge in the subterranean safety of "out of sight, out of mind."
I remember while in college in Cincy, I was introduced to the vestigial downtown subway system by a guy who told me a developer was trying to access and reopen the lines to connect underground nightclubs.
I honestly think I would move if a once-in-a-generation chance to get a rail system was intentionally sabotaged by elected officials. Rail transit in my opinion, is what separates the "men from the boys" when it comes to urban amenities. What makes the absence of rail even worse is knowing that the citizens of the city overwhelmingly voted this nutbag into office BECAUSE his vow to stop the streetcar was his primary platform. I do like Cincinnati and think it has a lot to offer, but if this half-built streetcar line gets undone as the mayor and city council are so vehemently working toward, I would be giving up hope that Cincy can keep up with its peer cities and offer a complete urban lifestyle that I am so passionate about. Rail transit is a vital component of that, I believe.
I agree Gasm, Cincinnati really needs to wake up. We get frustrated in Missouri, because the state is vehemently anti-urban and refuses to adequately fund Metro. I cant imagine Dooley or Slay trying to kill a federal funded light rail expansion, if anything I could see them arguing over Westport vs. Northside-Southside. Its pretty much understood in St. Louis that light rail transit is a major selling point for our region and has become a bigger and bigger part of our economy and urban landscape as the years have pasted. I've heard people say St. Louis didn't benefit much from Metro, but I'm willing to bet our region would be even more stagnant or even in decline if it wasn't for the introduction of light rail 20 years ago.stlgasm wrote:I honestly think I would move if a once-in-a-generation chance to get a rail system was intentionally sabotaged by elected officials. Rail transit in my opinion, is what separates the "men from the boys" when it comes to urban amenities. What makes the absence of rail even worse is knowing that the citizens of the city overwhelmingly voted this nutbag into office BECAUSE his vow to stop the streetcar was his primary platform. I do like Cincinnati and think it has a lot to offer, but if this half-built streetcar line gets undone as the mayor and city council are so vehemently working toward, I would be giving up hope that Cincy can keep up with its peer cities and offer a complete urban lifestyle that I am so passionate about. Rail transit is a vital component of that, I believe.
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I like that... So how old are we exactly? I'd say puberty... perhaps late puberty. Certainly we're not adults but the present less-than-desirable but better-than-nothing metrolink system is sort of like the beginnings of some solid facial hair. The Loop Trolley is rather much like a semi-popular youthful alt band that when you get down to it doesn't really have much real substance and we'll outgrow. We'll know we're serious adults when we commit to the downtown-CWE streetcar and get serious about useful metrolink or other high-quality transit down Jefferson and Grand, etc. into STL neighborhoods.stlgasm wrote: Rail transit in my opinion, is what separates the "men from the boys" when it comes to urban amenities.
You have a point, Roger. We're definitely not in the big leagues compared to the usual suspects (NY, Boston, DC, San Francisco, Chicago, Philly, etc), but for a 2nd tier city, we're not too shabby. A lot of cities are envious of our rail system. As limited as it is, it serves a surprising number of important institutions, employment centers and attractions, not to mention the vital direct airport-downtown connection. I'd say we are as good if not better than most of our peer cities (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Baltimore, Denver, Minneapolis, etc).
I agree too. We have a light rail system that is better than that of many other metros our size or larger. We have a lot to do in terms of developing the areas around metrolink stops though. I really like the plans put forward by the Transit Oriented Development group and I hope to see some of them acted upon soon.stlgasm wrote:A lot of cities are envious of our rail system. As limited as it is, it serves a surprising number of important institutions, employment centers and attractions, not to mention the vital direct airport-downtown connection. I'd say we are as good if not better than most of our peer cities (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Baltimore, Denver, Minneapolis, etc).
I'd like to see more stops that are well integrated into their neighborhoods. Why exactly does the brentwood stop empty out into the back of the loading dock of a Dierberg's? Why is there a car dealership right outside of the Sunnen stop? In European and Asian cities, the arrival of rapid transit line in the neighborhood would be a source of pride and they'll build a little plaza with a statue next to it and plenty of retail nearby.
I think some effort should be put into expanding the transit into some of the more affluent areas like Chesterfield or St. Charles. We need to overcome the stigma that "only poor people use public transit" that seems to cloud people's thoughts in many parts of town. This would go a long way towards getting more funding and support for Metrolink as well.
Looks like we might be getting our loop trolleys from Portland:
http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/ind ... g_hol.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/ind ... g_hol.html
I still keep thinking...in order for this to actually get local ridership and be a legitimate transportation resource, it's got to at least go down Delmar to Kingshighway and connect to the CWE.
How many times has anyone been at the Loop and thought, "Gee, I really need to get to the History Museum." The only people I can see using this on its current track are random tourists every now and then. Otherwise it doesn't do much good. How hard would it be to extend it down Delmar and have it shoot down Euclid. That would be perfect.
Sure, trolley tracks are a catalyst for development, but only if people see that the trolley is getting ridership. I'm afraid that if this fails, it's going to make it all the more difficult to get a real streetcar line in place. Imagine the incessant bad press.
How many times has anyone been at the Loop and thought, "Gee, I really need to get to the History Museum." The only people I can see using this on its current track are random tourists every now and then. Otherwise it doesn't do much good. How hard would it be to extend it down Delmar and have it shoot down Euclid. That would be perfect.
Sure, trolley tracks are a catalyst for development, but only if people see that the trolley is getting ridership. I'm afraid that if this fails, it's going to make it all the more difficult to get a real streetcar line in place. Imagine the incessant bad press.
At best no one was thinking. There should be some stairs that put you right in line with the store fronts there. At worst the retailers there didn't want transit riders there. It'd just be too easy for a shoplifter or car clouter to hop on the train, so the thinking goes.JuanHamez wrote:I'd like to see more stops that are well integrated into their neighborhoods. Why exactly does the brentwood stop empty out into the back of the loading dock of a Dierberg's? Why is there a car dealership right outside of the Sunnen stop? In European and Asian cities, the arrival of rapid transit line in the neighborhood would be a source of pride and they'll build a little plaza with a statue next to it and plenty of retail nearby.
I think some effort should be put into expanding the transit into some of the more affluent areas like Chesterfield or St. Charles. We need to overcome the stigma that "only poor people use public transit" that seems to cloud people's thoughts in many parts of town. This would go a long way towards getting more funding and support for Metrolink as well.
I think it's a waste to build Metrolink to Chesterfield or St Charles. The densities are too low out there to garner the kind of ridership to justify it. They'll say "see, no one rides it, what a waste of money" And to my last point they won't adjust the development patterns around it to take advantage of it, as we've seen on the cross county extension.
I share you same fear. It wouldn't be hard to build, The hard part is getting the money.jsbru wrote:I still keep thinking...in order for this to actually get local ridership and be a legitimate transportation resource, it's got to at least go down Delmar to Kingshighway and connect to the CWE.
How many times has anyone been at the Loop and thought, "Gee, I really need to get to the History Museum." The only people I can see using this on its current track are random tourists every now and then. Otherwise it doesn't do much good. How hard would it be to extend it down Delmar and have it shoot down Euclid. That would be perfect.
Sure, trolley tracks are a catalyst for development, but only if people see that the trolley is getting ridership. I'm afraid that if this fails, it's going to make it all the more difficult to get a real streetcar line in place. Imagine the incessant bad press.
My understanding is that the Dierberg's development was concerned that park-n-riders would fill up their precious lot. So they decided to make it as inconvenient as possible to get from the lot to the station platform.
I don't think a line to Saint Charles County would ever happen. But, I'd be supportive of a line to Westport or further out into Maryland Heights to Creve Couer Mill Rd. & Page Ave. I could see Westport getting behind some decent mixed-use TOD to transition some of their light industrial to residential/retail. And a the park-n-ride ridership from a Creve Couer Mill Rd. Station could be significant (the pedestrian nightmare North Hanley station consistently has some of the highest ridership on the system). Plenty of St. Chuck's people would just pop over the Page Ave. bridge and then Link the rest of the way, as opposed to dealing with 270 to 64 madness.
Sure, a Maryland Heights line would not be the immediate urbanist success story of a Gravois or Jefferson line, but Metrolink is versatile and can be successful in any number of settings (ie downtown subway stations or Illinois corn fields). Each station adds utility to the entire system, which needs to get funding and riders wherever it can. Even if a new station is in Olivette, Maryland Heights, or the Missouri River flood plain, it's still a great way to quickly, affordably, and efficiently get people to the CWE, Midtown, and Downtown, and it's one less car that needs to be parked once they get there.
I don't think a line to Saint Charles County would ever happen. But, I'd be supportive of a line to Westport or further out into Maryland Heights to Creve Couer Mill Rd. & Page Ave. I could see Westport getting behind some decent mixed-use TOD to transition some of their light industrial to residential/retail. And a the park-n-ride ridership from a Creve Couer Mill Rd. Station could be significant (the pedestrian nightmare North Hanley station consistently has some of the highest ridership on the system). Plenty of St. Chuck's people would just pop over the Page Ave. bridge and then Link the rest of the way, as opposed to dealing with 270 to 64 madness.
Sure, a Maryland Heights line would not be the immediate urbanist success story of a Gravois or Jefferson line, but Metrolink is versatile and can be successful in any number of settings (ie downtown subway stations or Illinois corn fields). Each station adds utility to the entire system, which needs to get funding and riders wherever it can. Even if a new station is in Olivette, Maryland Heights, or the Missouri River flood plain, it's still a great way to quickly, affordably, and efficiently get people to the CWE, Midtown, and Downtown, and it's one less car that needs to be parked once they get there.
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I think one alternative option for the streetcars would be to have the DeBaliviere portion changed so that the route just continues down Delmar to Kingshighway and then the proposed Central Corridor streetcar is changed completely: to a north-south Kingshighway line. It would be a good sub for a N-S MetroLink until we get one of those and it would hit many neighborhoods not served at all by rail. It would take you right to the Grove's front door!
Of course they aren't going to redesign the lines this way, but imagine if after they're built, they do decide to put one on Kingshighway and extend the Loop Trolley down to it. Then we would really have it all. I would also love a Grand streetcar.
Of course they aren't going to redesign the lines this way, but imagine if after they're built, they do decide to put one on Kingshighway and extend the Loop Trolley down to it. Then we would really have it all. I would also love a Grand streetcar.
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I'd support a route to st. charles if they passed a sales tax to supoort the system.
FWIW I don't think metrolink has a poor people stigma. The main reason i think is because so many use it to get to cardinals games. The stigma does apply to buses unfortunately. Why else would there be support for streetcars when buses are just a effective when routes are chosen wisely. No bus route goes from the loop to the history museum and back, I'm guessing for a reason.
FWIW I don't think metrolink has a poor people stigma. The main reason i think is because so many use it to get to cardinals games. The stigma does apply to buses unfortunately. Why else would there be support for streetcars when buses are just a effective when routes are chosen wisely. No bus route goes from the loop to the history museum and back, I'm guessing for a reason.
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We keep saying to build it down Delmar, but I'm not sure a KFC / Taco Bell route would bring a lot of new riders into the system.
If the goal is to pick up riders who don't currently use transit, then I'd love to see it continue down the original line, through the densest neighborhoods in the city. That would take it east from DeBaliviere down Pershing to Union, then jog north a block to Waterman to the Central West End, where it could connect with the Lindell line to Downtown.
Pershing, looking toward Union:
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If the goal is to pick up riders who don't currently use transit, then I'd love to see it continue down the original line, through the densest neighborhoods in the city. That would take it east from DeBaliviere down Pershing to Union, then jog north a block to Waterman to the Central West End, where it could connect with the Lindell line to Downtown.
Pershing, looking toward Union:
I think Joe has had a very distinct and clear mission for the Trolley as a tourist driver and why he always called it a Trolley. I don't think anything would be served well if you diverge. Personally, I would like to see the Trolley extended to the Zoo at a minimum to connect the Loop with one of the biggest regional draws in the area. Like everyone points out, History museum is underwhelming and presents nothing more than a turn around location for the Trolley itself. I also wonder what Forest Park Forever has to say. They seem quiet on what would make the Trolley successful in their opinion.
As far as streetcar. I think the priority should be to build the central corridor line and see what makes sense in terms of extending and expanding a system that is truly being designed as a streetcar line to compliment light rail - maybe incorporate a second route that brings union into CWE, etc.
As far as streetcar. I think the priority should be to build the central corridor line and see what makes sense in terms of extending and expanding a system that is truly being designed as a streetcar line to compliment light rail - maybe incorporate a second route that brings union into CWE, etc.