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PostNov 03, 2006#51

I don't know about these particular trolley's, but the Museum of Transport does ocassionally run some of the old streetcars for visitors. I don't know about the specifics of how often or how far, but my previous employer used to volunteer and drive them.



edit: Apparently the Trolley rides have become a permanent attraction to the museum.

http://www.transportmuseumassociation.org/railroad.html

http://www.museumoftransport.org/minitrain.htm

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PostNov 03, 2006#52

They have a small loop between some of the train sheds. I'd say less than the size of a football field.

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PostNov 03, 2006#53

Hmmm, sounds similar to the Delmar Loop trolley! :lol:

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PostNov 03, 2006#54

I'm a broken record ... I say again .... they NEED to extend this up Lindell to Lindel and Euclid. LInk up the West end and the loop ... then this makes sense. Only then will it be more than a tourist curiousity. No one ACTUALLY needs a 2 mile trolley system from the history museum to the loop.

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PostNov 03, 2006#55

I've been saying that since the day of its inception. However, I think an extension down Delmar and Hanley into DT Clayton would be just as viable and shorter (a.k.a. cheaper).

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PostNov 03, 2006#56

markofucity wrote:I'm a broken record ... I say again .... they NEED to extend this up Lindell to Lindel and Euclid. LInk up the West end and the loop ... then this makes sense. Only then will it be more than a tourist curiousity. No one ACTUALLY needs a 2 mile trolley system from the history museum to the loop.


I'd rather have them just run it all the way down Delmar to Euclid (maybe loop around Fountain Park?) to encourage development in that area.



But I'm not totally against the current proposal, it should bring development to DeBalivierre. Hopefully someone will build some mixed use on both sides of DeBalivierre between FFP and Lindell. That would really connect the neighborhood to Forest Park!

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PostNov 03, 2006#57

Hopefully someone will build some mixed use on both sides of DeBalivierre between FFP and Lindell.


I've wondered about the possibilities for this area.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Saint+Lou ... iwloc=addr



I'm guessing that they're zoned residential and that the homes on either side would resist retail or multi-unit residential. I'm not in favor of two more giant homes being built here so I guess I wish they would remain open, but have benches, maybe a dog park - something useable.

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PostNov 03, 2006#58

Some old photos...



DeBaliviere & DeGiverville:







Delmar & DeB:




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PostNov 03, 2006#59

markofucity wrote:I'm a broken record ... I say again .... they NEED to extend this up Lindell to Lindel and Euclid. LInk up the West end and the loop ... then this makes sense. Only then will it be more than a tourist curiousity. No one ACTUALLY needs a 2 mile trolley system from the history museum to the loop.


Why stop at Euclid? I say go all the way down Lindell to Grand. Then have it connect to a line that runs on Grand from South Grand to Grand Center.

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PostNov 04, 2006#60

well yeah - i'd like to build ten lines - but Euclid and Lindell is just a mile or so down the damn road - i mean come on

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PostNov 04, 2006#61

I prefer to wax nostalgic with a trio of routes that follow old streetcar routes:



• From Clayton Metrolink via Meramec, North & South, Delmar through The Loop, and Euclid to CWE Metrolink

• From Clayton Metrolink via Central, Forsyth, Skinker, Waterman, DeBaliviere, Pershing, Union, Waterman, Kingshighway, McPherson, Euclid to CWE Metrolink

• From The Loop via Delmar, Skinker, Demun, and Bellevue to Maplewood



I'm not a fan of running a streetcar line down Lindell, at least not anywhere between Skinker & Kingshighway: it serves too few people. Lindell never had a streetcar line along this stretch.




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PostJan 06, 2007#62

Conurbation wrote:Those trolley cars are amazing. After looking at those I wonder how anyone can argue in favor of a bus line or these trolleys.
How about those arguing for the trolleys and those arguing for the new bus routes meet eachother halfway?





^

^

^

It's either that or this. Come on and pick one.




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PostJan 08, 2007#63

I hate the fake trolley buses. A bus is a bus, a trolley is a trolley.

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PostJan 08, 2007#64

It looks like a trolley taken off the tracks...

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PostJan 09, 2007#65

Would it please any of you if the Metrolink cars looked more like trolleys? This is the next generation trolley from San Diego.





San Diego (left). St. Louis (right).

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PostJan 09, 2007#66

That "next generation" trolley is over 25 years old. San Diegos new LRVs look much better. Sad though how our current fleet is still based of a 1980s model. And I LOVE San Diegos livery!! Simple, yet sassy!

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PostJan 09, 2007#67

TIABstl wrote:That "next generation" trolley is over 25 years old. San Diegos new LRVs look much better. Sad though how our current fleet is still based of a 1980s model. And I LOVE San Diegos livery!! Simple, yet sassy!
Oops! Maybe this is the current model from San Diego.




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PostJan 09, 2007#68

^ That would be it: the Siemens Avanto S70.

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PostJan 09, 2007#69

I think the current Metro color scheme looks like the American flag, which is cheesy. Bring back the Blue/Green colors of the '70s and '80s!

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PostJan 11, 2007#70

It looks like we are already behind other cities in bringing light rail back to the streets.



Cities rediscover allure of streetcars

Updated 1/10/2007 8:38 PM

By Haya El Nasser, USA TODAY



The streetcars that rumbled and clanged through many American cities from the late 1800s until World War II helped shape neighborhoods. More than a half-century later, streetcars are coming back and reviving the same neighborhoods they helped create.

Several cities have resurrected the streetcar tradition and about three dozen others plan to — from Tucson, and Birmingham, Ala., to Miami and Trenton, N.J.



This return to the past is less about satisfying a sense of nostalgia than about enticing developers and people to old industrial areas and faded neighborhoods. As cities experience a much-publicized urban renaissance, streetcars have become another draw for investment in housing, stores and restaurants.



Cities hope that streetcars can do in this century what they did in the last: Connect neighborhoods and provide a relatively cheap alternative to walking and driving.



"The return of the streetcars is not really happening for new reasons but for the same reasons," says Michael English, vice president of Tampa Historic Streetcar, which operates along 2.5 miles connecting downtown, the fashionable loft and entertainment Channelside district and historic Ybor City. The city had a 54-mile system until 1946. The new line opened in 2002 and condominiums have been sprouting up along the way since.



"We spent $55 million," English says. "It attracted well over $1 billion in private investment. … Part of the marketing attraction is that we were bringing back something that is viewed here very romantically. A lot of people who grew up here used it all the time."



In the face of worsening traffic congestion, public support for mass transit is rising. Many cities, however, cannot afford to build light-rail lines that often must extend several miles to have a chance of attracting federal dollars.



Funding of light-rail systems often requires evidence that they will save passengers time. To make that case, most rail lines have to stretch out to the suburbs to reach commuters, an expensive undertaking.



Many cities buying in

How streetcars are reviving neighborhoods:



•Portland, Ore., often at the forefront of urban innovation, was the first to build a modern streetcar system in its downtown Pearl District.



It attracted about 100 projects worth $2.3 billion in less than five years, all within two blocks of the line. They include 7,248 housing units and 4.6 million square feet of office and retail. Proximity to mass transit allowed developers to build fewer parking spaces. Ridership was more than triple projections.



read full story here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... cars_x.htm

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PostJan 12, 2007#71

stellar wrote:USA TODAY



Many cities, however, cannot afford to build light-rail lines that often must extend several miles to have a chance of attracting federal dollars.



Funding of light-rail systems often requires evidence that they will save passengers time. To make that case, most rail lines have to stretch out to the suburbs to reach commuters, an expensive undertaking.
A city that already has a light-rail system isn't going to benefit anywhere near as much by adding a trolley. The trolley would only be good for nostalgic value in St. Louis.

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PostJan 12, 2007#72

^^Trolley = yes... there is a lot of nostalgic value... but in an area like Delmar Loop/CWE a trolley would make a lot of sense. Intermittent stops... every 2 or 3 blocks... take people too/from their cars at the scattered parking lots to the stores along a route. (the length of developed/ Mr. Edwards proposed developments along Delmar is already over ¾ a mile. If it keeps going… a trolley might be a great alternative to walking 1.5 or 2 miles for west countians who drive in) Plus an area as "hip" and/or "cool" as CWE/U. city Loop would benefit from the nostalgic view that a trolley system conjures. Not to mention it could (if done correctly) set the area apart (above hopefully) from everywhere else that is similar.

But as for the map by Mill204... its a great idea, but i doubt it will ever happen nearly to the extent that is dreamed...

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PostJan 12, 2007#73

Would a trolley in The Loop eliminate an entire lane on Delmar Blvd.? It wouldn't be good for business in The Loop if automobiles avoided going down Delmar Blvd.



How much money would it cost to ride the trolley? I doubt that many people would pay just to travel a walking distance (such as from The Pageant to the large parking lot behind Blockbuster).



If the trolley were so magnificent, then why did St. Louis get rid of it many years ago?

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PostJan 12, 2007#74

Because gasoline was 35 cents a gallon.

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PostJan 12, 2007#75

Streetcars/Trolleys are meant to operate in street with traffic. Taking Portland's streetcar system for example, they operate in the driving lane and have a station every 3-4 blocks. In many places on their system, there is still on-street parking except where a station is located. If the same thing happens in the Loop, we won't lose any lanes and would only lose a few parking spaces for stations.

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