If you want a functional vehicle that links neighborhoods and metro stops, and is cheap, we have them already- it's called a bus. You may not agree with the routes, but they can change- a fixed track can't. A big part of what Edwards wants here in the loop is the variety that spices up life. It's meant to be a bit touristy(not just for out-of-towners), to get a certain buzz. He is not creating a private transportation system, he's trying to create something cool for his sphere of influence.
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The system I'm describing would be "fixed" because it would run off of an electric wire and truss system overhead. Thus, the routes could not change unless they rewired an entirely different path (which would entail putting suspended lines over head etc). The only difference between the two system would be that my system would have tires rather than rails. It would give you all the benefits of a fixed system withouit the cost of laying track.
I just re-read your message ... are you listing the malleability of bus routes as a positive?
If you are then I really disagree. Transportation systems spur development only if they are fixed. No one plops down investment capital on corner X because Metro decides to run a bus route past because bus routes are not permanent. They can be changed at moments notice (and are - frequently). If you put fixed infrsatructure in place then the area becomes enticing for investment - because the city is commitign to the area.
and I know Joe Edwards is primarly interesetd in creating a neat atmosphere enhancement for his little kingdom - but two things: (1) if you listen to what he says then he really is interested in creating a functional transit system (he was on NPR last night) and (2) I AM interested in creating a private functional transit system ... thats my point. I think thats what we need
If you are then I really disagree. Transportation systems spur development only if they are fixed. No one plops down investment capital on corner X because Metro decides to run a bus route past because bus routes are not permanent. They can be changed at moments notice (and are - frequently). If you put fixed infrsatructure in place then the area becomes enticing for investment - because the city is commitign to the area.
and I know Joe Edwards is primarly interesetd in creating a neat atmosphere enhancement for his little kingdom - but two things: (1) if you listen to what he says then he really is interested in creating a functional transit system (he was on NPR last night) and (2) I AM interested in creating a private functional transit system ... thats my point. I think thats what we need
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New bus service will link the CWE neighborhood better with MetroLink once Cross County opens. As part of Metro Redefined 2006, a new bus route -- #51 Central West End -- will be created.
The route will go from the new transfer center at the CWE MetroLink from Taylor to Forest Park to Euclid to McPherson to Kingshighway to Waterman to Union to Pershing to DeBaliviere (Forest Park station) to Waterman to Skinker (Skinker station) to Forsyth (Big Bend station) into Clayton. Much of the service along the #51 bus route is currently part of the #93 Lindell or #97 Delmar, but the portions on Euclid haven't seen bus service since the eliminated #2 Forest Park shuttle. If going from say the CWE to WashU's Hilltop Campus or to Clayton, you would likely just take MetroLink, but this new route provides nearby apartment and retail lined streets of the neighborhoods to the north of Forest Park a bus connection to MetroLink.
Details about this new route and other proposed bus changes are on-line at Metro.
The route will go from the new transfer center at the CWE MetroLink from Taylor to Forest Park to Euclid to McPherson to Kingshighway to Waterman to Union to Pershing to DeBaliviere (Forest Park station) to Waterman to Skinker (Skinker station) to Forsyth (Big Bend station) into Clayton. Much of the service along the #51 bus route is currently part of the #93 Lindell or #97 Delmar, but the portions on Euclid haven't seen bus service since the eliminated #2 Forest Park shuttle. If going from say the CWE to WashU's Hilltop Campus or to Clayton, you would likely just take MetroLink, but this new route provides nearby apartment and retail lined streets of the neighborhoods to the north of Forest Park a bus connection to MetroLink.
Details about this new route and other proposed bus changes are on-line at Metro.
Yes, I have always wondered why there is no link betweek the Loop and the CWE when they are so close. The development just ends at the Pageant...
If the track did run all the way to the Chase, the rest of Delmar east of Skinker would surely be seeing better days. I do not consider this area bad, but, it does not look right when there is so much development to the east, and west.
If the track system was extended to the CWE, I would have to bust a nut!
We should all write letters to Slay.
If the track did run all the way to the Chase, the rest of Delmar east of Skinker would surely be seeing better days. I do not consider this area bad, but, it does not look right when there is so much development to the east, and west.
If the track system was extended to the CWE, I would have to bust a nut!
We should all write letters to Slay.
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Those trolley cars are amazing. After looking at those I wonder how anyone can argue in favor of a bus line or these trolleys. Like it or not, buses have a stigma attached to them. When was the last time most of us rode on a bus? I don't know the bus routes and I bet most others don't either. When you have a track with trolleys running on a 10 minute loop, you know what you are getting.
Plus, these trolleys add a certain flair and nostalgia, which even the nicest buses can't touch. Forget trolleys for the Loop. As stlpcsolutions has already said, we should have the trolleys running from the Loop to the CWE!
Plus, these trolleys add a certain flair and nostalgia, which even the nicest buses can't touch. Forget trolleys for the Loop. As stlpcsolutions has already said, we should have the trolleys running from the Loop to the CWE!
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Well now, if the trolleys use federal funding, an alternatives analysis would be required, and hasn't yet happened. Such analysis would have to investigate why a route from the Lions Gates to History Museum makes any sense. At such time, alternatives extending the Delmar route further east to Euclid could be evaluated.
The current conceptual route came out of feasibility study and civic backers (Edwards, CMT, MO Historical Society). Still, the route could modify with further study. For example, at one time, the route was thought to maybe extend beyond the History Museum to the Muny circle, but that idea was dropped. Perhaps, City leaders can see the value in extending a Delmar trolley all the way to Euclid, and down it, instead of DeBaliviere.
The current conceptual route came out of feasibility study and civic backers (Edwards, CMT, MO Historical Society). Still, the route could modify with further study. For example, at one time, the route was thought to maybe extend beyond the History Museum to the Muny circle, but that idea was dropped. Perhaps, City leaders can see the value in extending a Delmar trolley all the way to Euclid, and down it, instead of DeBaliviere.
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I've always looked at this project as if it's Phase 1. This idea of running a line from the Loop to the History museum is just planting the seed of bringing back streetcars to the streets of St. Louis. If successful, branch lines could be built. The first one being an extension down Delmar to the CWE.
Yeah, I really do not like buses because they are dependent on traffic.
I like streetcars too - I used to commute on one every day when I lived in Budapest. Streetcars are still the workhorses of the transit fleet in many eastern European cities, and they serve their purpose very well.
The proposed streetcar line for St. Louis is different, though. As noted already in this thread, it would certainly be atmospheric. But it wouldn't be a key part of the U City-CWE transit corridor, which is already well-served by existing and planned Metrolink and bus routes.
Regarding Delmar between Skinker and Kingshighway, is it necessary to build a streetcar line to ensure that Delmar once again becomes a thriving retail and residential corridor? Well, no. Delmar, Enright and other streets in the area are already blossoming, thanks in part to the substantial public investment that is Metrolink. And Washington University is making further major investments in the area. Claiming that a streetcar is crucial for Delmar's success is akin to claiming that downtown's Garage Mahal is necessary for the Old Post Office's success.
So on the question of whether to build a streetcar line: absolutely! But should federal and city funds be used to pay for it? Nope. Federal money would be better spent on other transit corridors in the region. And city money would be better spent on streetscape improvements on Delmar that might complement a future streetcar line, without funding it directly.
The proposed streetcar line for St. Louis is different, though. As noted already in this thread, it would certainly be atmospheric. But it wouldn't be a key part of the U City-CWE transit corridor, which is already well-served by existing and planned Metrolink and bus routes.
Regarding Delmar between Skinker and Kingshighway, is it necessary to build a streetcar line to ensure that Delmar once again becomes a thriving retail and residential corridor? Well, no. Delmar, Enright and other streets in the area are already blossoming, thanks in part to the substantial public investment that is Metrolink. And Washington University is making further major investments in the area. Claiming that a streetcar is crucial for Delmar's success is akin to claiming that downtown's Garage Mahal is necessary for the Old Post Office's success.
So on the question of whether to build a streetcar line: absolutely! But should federal and city funds be used to pay for it? Nope. Federal money would be better spent on other transit corridors in the region. And city money would be better spent on streetscape improvements on Delmar that might complement a future streetcar line, without funding it directly.
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stlpcsolutions wrote:
Well, like buses, streetcars usually run in mixed traffic on streets. MetroLink trains may use street right-of-way for part of an alignment, but its trains generally operate in exclusive right-of-way. How you treat intersections along MetroLink determines if you have fully exclusive or semi-exclusive right-of-way.
Fully exclusive right-of-way has grade separation from streets with minimal controlled gate crossings of at-grade intersections with streets. Semi-exclusive right-of-way has exclusive medians yet mixed traffic at major intersections with special traffic controls. To date, MetroLink is a fully exclusive system, but such treatment has added to its per-mile cost, especially within the new Cross County corridor.
Streetcars are considerably cheaper than light-rail, about $5 million per mile (mixed traffic streetcar) verses $25 million per mile (at-grade LRT). Cross County which is being built practically to the design standards of a subway/elevated rapid transit line costs over $75 million per mile.
Despite the lower cost of streetcars, however, operationally, a streetcar travels not much faster than a bus. In fact, since dense street-level activity is needed to warrant a streetcar, streetcars often travel slower than buses, since traveling through highly pedestrian-oriented zones.
Yeah, I really do not like buses because they are dependent on traffic.
Well, like buses, streetcars usually run in mixed traffic on streets. MetroLink trains may use street right-of-way for part of an alignment, but its trains generally operate in exclusive right-of-way. How you treat intersections along MetroLink determines if you have fully exclusive or semi-exclusive right-of-way.
Fully exclusive right-of-way has grade separation from streets with minimal controlled gate crossings of at-grade intersections with streets. Semi-exclusive right-of-way has exclusive medians yet mixed traffic at major intersections with special traffic controls. To date, MetroLink is a fully exclusive system, but such treatment has added to its per-mile cost, especially within the new Cross County corridor.
Streetcars are considerably cheaper than light-rail, about $5 million per mile (mixed traffic streetcar) verses $25 million per mile (at-grade LRT). Cross County which is being built practically to the design standards of a subway/elevated rapid transit line costs over $75 million per mile.
Despite the lower cost of streetcars, however, operationally, a streetcar travels not much faster than a bus. In fact, since dense street-level activity is needed to warrant a streetcar, streetcars often travel slower than buses, since traveling through highly pedestrian-oriented zones.
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I think for starters the current line orientation makes sense. I was obviously designed by its backers (MO HS-History museum, Edwards-Loop) so we know why it goes where it goes. The street set up at these points alos allows for the turnaround loop as well. Furthermore the Debaliviere Metro stop gives connectivity and continuity in public transportation, even to the CWE.
southslider wrote:Well now, if the trolleys use federal funding, an alternatives analysis would be required, and hasn't yet happened.
LouLou wrote:should federal and city funds be used to pay for it? Nope. Federal money would be better spent on other transit corridors in the region.
Am I mistaken or wasn't this project placed on the last transportation bill that went through Congress? Money was not actually allocated for it, but the implication is that it will be in the future. I agree with most on this thread that the project definately calls for private funding. Forest Park and the Loop are already linked via metrolink.
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An authorization was included in the recent transportation law. However, unlike an earmark, an authorization is no guarantee on funding.
All fixed guideway projects, like streetcars and light-rail transit, still have to compete for New Starts funding, even if having authorization. However, smaller fixed guideway projects, such as the Delmar Trolley, may be eligible for newly created "Small Starts" funds.
All fixed guideway projects, like streetcars and light-rail transit, still have to compete for New Starts funding, even if having authorization. However, smaller fixed guideway projects, such as the Delmar Trolley, may be eligible for newly created "Small Starts" funds.
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Update:
Link
Trolley backers say engineering study is next stop on line
Shawn Clubb
Of the Suburban Journals
South City Journal,South Side Journal,Southwest City Journal
07/12/2006
A group that wants to restore trolley service to The Loop and connect it to Forest Park hopes to learn soon if it will receive a grant to do an engineering study for the project.
Thomas Shrout, executive director of Citizens for Modern Transit, said the Loop Trolley Company has been recommended for the $1.3 million grant from the East-West Gateway Council of Governments' staff. He said that organization's board would consider the recommendation at the July meeting.
Link
So that means that we're still a LONG ways away from this construction being started.
markofucity wrote:I live on the loop now (see my username) and of course I completely support this idea. But how much cooler - and more usefull - would it be if the trolley ran all the way into the Central West End.
Linking the loop up with the West End just seems to make so much sense; They're two of the city's most vibrant neighborhoods. All it would take is an extension of the trolley line down lindell to Euclid. If I had my way the trolley would then loop north on Euclid and go back west on Delmar.
I support this idea wholeheartedly too! In fact, a system much like what you're describing was in place before it was taken apart. The fact that it is so obvious is because that's exactly what used to be.
See "Streets and Streetcars of St. Louis" by Andrew D. Young, for how it used to be. Of course, the subtitle is "A sentimental jounrey".
Will I ride a SAFE, CLEAN, SYSTEM that ran all the way from BJC Station, to Forest Park Station, then the Loop then Clayton, then down Brentwood to the Galleria and the "Galleria" MetroLink station? Yes. Absolutely. I might ditch my car for something like that.
I dont plan on ditching my car.
jefferson wrote:Forest Park and the Loop are already linked via metrolink.
I think this is a bit of a mistake to believe what the Map tells you in this regard. There is a huge stretch from DeBaliviere North then Delmar west towards the Loop that is almost deserted. It is a huge eye sore and keeps the city from having a vibrant corridore between The Loop and the Central West End.
A trolley/tram along Delmar, and possibly making the Loop into a pedestrian/Trolley only area (with higher density redevelopement); well, it would be nice if it could happen. AND it will provide a future way for Delmar to potentially become a retail corridor again all the way from The Loop to DeBalivier first, then maybe Union.
Something like:
http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/archives/000833.php
Except - with a trolley.
As for now, even though I live within walking distance of a MetroLink stop, I elect to DRIVE to the Loop. There HAS been some recent developement in the area (Delmar between DeBalivier and The Loop) for commerial space. It's very isolated; but I will be interested to know who runs those businesses.
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The latest is that the grant to begin design of the Loop Trolley track route(i.e. where they are actually going to put the thing in the street) has been approved. Getting the money to build the trolley, well that's another story.
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^ What does the grant cover? There seem to be two completely finished trolley cars - one on Delmar and one at the history museum. It's a short track, how many cars would they need. Man I wish they would run this down Lindell to Euclid . . .
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It covers design of the proposed route from the Lions to the History Museum. Right now there are two cars. More cars are at the Transportation Museum, but they won't let those go so the Loop Trolley Co. will likely have to buy more cars should this project move forward to construction.
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Cool - it would be great to have cars from different generations - I would love to ride th 1950's car and then the 1900's etc. It would add some interest I think.
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brickandmortar wrote:More cars are at the Transportation Museum, but they won't let those go so the Loop Trolley Co. will likely have to buy more cars should this project move forward to construction.
Yeah, why on earth would we want to put them back into use when they're better off collecting dust at a half-assed museum?