When the mall version of Union Station first opened it was hyped as a similar sort of destination. It was never just a "mall" in the conventional sense. There was (and still is) a hotel. There were restaurants. There was entertainment. There were quite a few local and specialty retailers not to be found anywhere else in the region. In a lot of ways the concepts do feel similar. That said, the patronage seems likely to be much more stable since it's students and faculty at long established local colleges and not office workers and tourists, who can be surprisingly fickle. (Though I could imagine SLU moving almost as easily as Southwestern Bell, really.) In the end I think DB is right that this has a much better shot at long term success, but I think Peter 95's comparison is obvious enough as well. (And I want my 80s Union Station back. It was tremendous fun. Just sayin'. Also St. Louis Center.)dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2021Union Station was a mall....this isnt a mall and its surrounded by college students from two schools that charge $40,000+ a yearPeterXCV wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2021Sorry to be a downer but this development feels a lot like Union Station 2.0. Obviously I hope it's successful but I'm wondering what this will look like in 10 years. I'm curious how others would compare those two developments. What makes them different? Do you think City Foundry is more likely to succeed than Union Station, if so why?
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^ Union Station was an example of a "festival marketplace" redevelopment tool popular around the 1970s-80s in an effort to bring adaptive reuse to urban complexes that no longer served their original purpose or to settings that had some authentic character. Harborplace in Baltimore was an early example. Generally shopping-oriented with a mix of entertainment and other uses. Mall-ish but an attempt at more spectacle and experience.
City Foundry is part of yet another, more recent iteration of large gathering "marketplaces" but generally with an attempt at a more balanced approach (less emphasis on shopping and more "foodie" oriented along with some housing and office) and perhaps with a less touristy emphasis.
(I guess you could also say 'lifestyle centers" were a more recent, suburban-style iteration of an effort to be more than a regular post-war mall in an attempt to keep up with changing times.)
I think City Foundry has a good chance at success as the different components come online, but it will be interesting to see how these first food places turn out... hopefully there is a decent rent arrangement in place that will help them through the early times before things are more fully in place.
City Foundry is part of yet another, more recent iteration of large gathering "marketplaces" but generally with an attempt at a more balanced approach (less emphasis on shopping and more "foodie" oriented along with some housing and office) and perhaps with a less touristy emphasis.
(I guess you could also say 'lifestyle centers" were a more recent, suburban-style iteration of an effort to be more than a regular post-war mall in an attempt to keep up with changing times.)
I think City Foundry has a good chance at success as the different components come online, but it will be interesting to see how these first food places turn out... hopefully there is a decent rent arrangement in place that will help them through the early times before things are more fully in place.
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^Oh, I fully agree that the Foundry has a good shot at doing better. But the concepts clearly feel related to me. (And honestly, I like the concept and liked Union Station then. It was a pretty happening place. Apart from the Christmas rush I've never seen a mall as crowded anywhere.) I've yet to get over to Foundry, but it sounds like a place I would enjoy. I need to remedy this problem.
I think both Union Station and the City Foundry are a success because they A) preserved very large historic buildings B) added amenities and new concepts to the city. I'm also a person that feels that these sort of developments are necessary (especially in a city like St. Louis) because they help spark interest in the urban core to individuals that normally wouldn't frequent the city center. Also, these types of developments happen in cycles. Will the City Foundry be around in 50 years? Probably not in it's current iteration, but the building is likely to still be standing and used for the next trendy concept.
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I hate to say it, but the free parking will help keep the Foundry full of customers. My suburban parents have already been several times with their friends and I highly doubt that would be the case having to pay to park.
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Yeah, every time I hear colleagues or classmates mention it, “and there’s ample free parking” is always part of the sentence.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:I hate to say it, but the free parking will help keep the Foundry full of customers. My suburban parents have already been several times with their friends and I highly doubt that would be the case having to pay to park.
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I agree. St. Louis has been, and may also be, a city that does not like to pay to park. They also don't like to pay cover charges (for the most part). Probably due to plentiful parking.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021I hate to say it, but the free parking will help keep the Foundry full of customers. My suburban parents have already been several times with their friends and I highly doubt that would be the case having to pay to park.
The free parking will certainly help, but it's one pillar of a successful strategy. If The Foundry succeeds it will be for similar reasons as The Loop - a mix of further-out suburbanites driving in, an adjacent student population that overwhelmingly walks and bikes, walkable non-student residential density, and proximate transit access.STLCityMike wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021I agree. St. Louis has been, and may also be, a city that does not like to pay to park. They also don't like to pay cover charges (for the most part). Probably due to plentiful parking.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021I hate to say it, but the free parking will help keep the Foundry full of customers. My suburban parents have already been several times with their friends and I highly doubt that would be the case having to pay to park.
Paradoxically, it's the walkability that gives it the feel that draws suburbanites in by car.
I don't know. I remember when I was living in Washington, DC it was common for suburban people to park their cars at Metro stations and then ride into the city.quincunx wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021How do we change this socially-engineered entitlement mentality?
It does seem like if the attraction is unique and important enough people will swallow the fees like with the Zoo and Cardinals games.
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Off the top of my head, the way to change this mentality is to grow the city population to a point where that volume of transitory car-centric customers isn't needed... and the city can sustain its current business environment with its local populations supporting/sustaining its local businesses.
Additionally, I think transit plays an important part. It dovetails with walkability/density to make neighborhoods less reliant on accommodating cars.pattimagee wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021Off the top of my head, the way to change this mentality is to grow the city population to a point where that volume of transitory car-centric customers isn't needed... and the city can sustain its current business environment with its local populations supporting/sustaining its local businesses.
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The Foundry's advantage with the suburban shopping demographic is that there is no County-based substitute product, where free parking is the standard. A major reason Union Station shuttered is because the County had multiple substitute products - shopping malls - that had free parking. The novelty of Union Station shopping wasn't seen as worth the premium for parking when one could go to the Galleria, or any other comparable shopping center, where there was no fee for parking. Same thing for St. Louis Centre. Simple as that.
Free parking is a competitive advantage that neither Union Station nor St. Louis Centre offered. This cannot be underestimated, especially in STL.
Meanwhile, the Foundry will also excel because it is surrounded by non-driving customers, such as SLU students, office workers, and proximate neighborhood residents, furthering its draw. As a nearby resident, I'm glad to be part of this demographic.
Free parking is a competitive advantage that neither Union Station nor St. Louis Centre offered. This cannot be underestimated, especially in STL.
Meanwhile, the Foundry will also excel because it is surrounded by non-driving customers, such as SLU students, office workers, and proximate neighborhood residents, furthering its draw. As a nearby resident, I'm glad to be part of this demographic.
I think there is an argument to made for making transit free too (I don't know how to get that done politically) to make it a more competitive option with cars. If the choice is between driving (which is free in drivers' perception, ie. no immediate cost associated) with free parking versus transit which has both a higher immediate cost, may take slightly longer, and requires familiarizing yourself with the routes and ticketing then people will almost always choose to drive. At least in our current auto-centric environment I think making transit free would encourage more people to get out of their cars.wabash wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021Additionally, I think transit plays an important part. It dovetails with walkability/density to make neighborhoods less reliant on accommodating cars.pattimagee wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021Off the top of my head, the way to change this mentality is to grow the city population to a point where that volume of transitory car-centric customers isn't needed... and the city can sustain its current business environment with its local populations supporting/sustaining its local businesses.
No one like to pay for parking and covers. Cities don't have inherent cultural identities about car usage. People in Seattle and Chicago say "well this is just a city that drives" all the time. They have great rail transit options and plenty of dense neighborhoods where paid parking and cover charges are abundant. St. Louis just has an awful regional government (e.g. the sales tax wars) and way too much sprawl (every municipality deciding they need their own Costco anchored shopping complex). I'm saying this because things don't have to be this way. This can change.STLCityMike wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021I agree. St. Louis has been, and may also be, a city that does not like to pay to park. They also don't like to pay cover charges (for the most part). Probably due to plentiful parking.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2021I hate to say it, but the free parking will help keep the Foundry full of customers. My suburban parents have already been several times with their friends and I highly doubt that would be the case having to pay to park.
^^Strong agreement with Alex and Nomad. I think a lot of people in St. Louis would be surprised at how many folks still primarily drive to get around in cities with better transit systems.
Public transit absolutely should be free. Fares typically only cover ~20% of revenue for the system anyway, and having more people use it rather than drive is an overall social/environmental good, pays for itself in the grand scheme of things. If public transportation funding was of parity with highway spending there would be more than enough money to do this. Also makes it more likely people will give it a try, and for teenagers to use it.
Public transit absolutely should be free. Fares typically only cover ~20% of revenue for the system anyway, and having more people use it rather than drive is an overall social/environmental good, pays for itself in the grand scheme of things. If public transportation funding was of parity with highway spending there would be more than enough money to do this. Also makes it more likely people will give it a try, and for teenagers to use it.
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^St. Louis likes free parking but they also love parking garages. Saw many people drive past open, free metered spots on Sunday to park for $10 in SLU's garage for the soccer match.
Interesting. Biz owners in the Loop said patrons were scared of parking garages so we had to keep the gov't provided surface parking behind Cicero's.
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To be fair I also saw many people who did park in metered spots trying to figure out how to pay even though it was Sunday. I think there are a lot of county people who don't understand street parking in the city.
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I’d quit my job if people who I told “you don’t have to pay it’s Sunday” gave me the money they were about to deposit into a meter in downtown
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^Do they deposit money or just check the signage at the meter/box/curb? I can imagine an exception to the "except Sundays and Holidays" rule of thumb. Is there anything beyond courtesy preventing municipalities from charging on Sundays? I can't recall a municipality that did . . . but I more or less always check the signage when I park at a meter. (Even here. Maybe especially here, since there's odd spots where you'd think you're fine but parking is prohibited entirely at certain times or on certain days. Got burned by that once when I read the rules on the meter, fed the meter, and failed to notice the "no parking between x and y pm" sign. I believe the cop who gave me the ticket actually watched me park and feed the meter. A cop watched, in any case. And said bupkis.)
Went last night for the first time. Had a chicken salad sandwich at Chicken Scratch (their rotisserie chickens look pretty good but pricey at $25 a pop). Sandwich was great. Had a giant club at Subdivision as well. Wanted to try the jerk chicken spot, Kalbi, etc. Overall, most tables were full. The bar could use some lighting design (it's very dark and flat). Someone came over to the bar with a few smash burgers from a spot that's still to open. I think once a few more spots open up it'll be a really cool spot. Myself, I loved the vibe of Parlor in KC and wouldn't mind this being a bit more condensed. It feels very sprawling, and because there's so much space, it feels a little less lively, even if it was a pretty full house. Lots of families as well, that was encouraging.
It was a little sobering to see basically all the pedestrian thoroughfares pretty much empty and desolate, waiting for the retail shops to open. A few were open (Artifox, and a jewelry store). I liked that the retail spaces were small. They should hopefully be accessible for small local business, though not sure on the lease $$'s. Hopefully the May's Markets can help to visualize more activity here in the future.
It was a little sobering to see basically all the pedestrian thoroughfares pretty much empty and desolate, waiting for the retail shops to open. A few were open (Artifox, and a jewelry store). I liked that the retail spaces were small. They should hopefully be accessible for small local business, though not sure on the lease $$'s. Hopefully the May's Markets can help to visualize more activity here in the future.
Every bleeping Sunday after church when we're waiting/walking to brunch at Rooster, Chris', Egg, Kingside or anywhere else with meters.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 24, 2021I’d quit my job if people who I told “you don’t have to pay it’s Sunday” gave me the money they were about to deposit into a meter in downtown
Maybe they aren’t comfortable with parallel- parking.Black02AltimaSE wrote: ↑Nov 24, 2021^St. Louis likes free parking but they also love parking garages. Saw many people drive past open, free metered spots on Sunday to park for $10 in SLU's garage for the soccer match.
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I'm becoming quite a fan of the City Foundry Fresh Thyme.