I don't really see anything happening on the State end. Don't really trust them much either. Thankfully, some of this might take care of itself. This recession has people looking at their budgets like never before. Hopefully common sense will eventually win out and some of the min-cities will merge with others. There have been signs. In the end, it is going to take the residents in the cities to step up and vote to change. none of those mayors are stepping down voluntarily.shadrach wrote: What I would like to see more, is the state corralling the 'Balkan' cities — Velda Village, Bel Noir, Vinita Park, Bel-Ridge, etc. — into one city.
- 407
- 11K
That's great to see in the P-D, though obviously they only hint at the larger issues of tax competition, inefficiencies in economic development AND the larger issue that is St. Louis County beginning to deal with issues the City has dealt with for decades.
"But most of the middle-class homeowners and many of the small manufacturing companies that moved into the Balkans after World War II have fled, leaving big holes in the tax base and an aging, poor and service-dependent population."
Sounds familiar right? The question may be whether places like Clayton, Huntleigh, et al will leave the less prosperous parts of STL County to fend for themselves (like STL City) or whether they'll extend a helping hand.
"But most of the middle-class homeowners and many of the small manufacturing companies that moved into the Balkans after World War II have fled, leaving big holes in the tax base and an aging, poor and service-dependent population."
Sounds familiar right? The question may be whether places like Clayton, Huntleigh, et al will leave the less prosperous parts of STL County to fend for themselves (like STL City) or whether they'll extend a helping hand.
- 597
Hopefully someone reads that article and collects petitions. It would be nice to see consolidation on the ballot come November. Interesting point though, about Clayton leaving them to fend for themselves. That wouldn't be very responsible or forward thinking.
That's why I'm in favor of boroughs. Reduce down to single digit municipalities. Create more and easier cooperation on TODs, sprawl, economic development, education, police departments, water use etc.
The more I look at government in this region and state for that matter, the less I realize its purpose. Anyway, I'm glad stltoday posted that article, it seems the content over there is turning over a new leaf.
That's why I'm in favor of boroughs. Reduce down to single digit municipalities. Create more and easier cooperation on TODs, sprawl, economic development, education, police departments, water use etc.
The more I look at government in this region and state for that matter, the less I realize its purpose. Anyway, I'm glad stltoday posted that article, it seems the content over there is turning over a new leaf.
Lets go crazy and say the County became part of the City, What would be the total sq miles? I know STL City is roughly 61. A city like Houston, TX (4th largest in US) has a smaller population of St Louis. WHere would STL rank in population? Top 10?
City + county = ~1,350,000 people and ~570 sq mi. That would put us at 7th behind Philly.
- 1,000
hunh? First, it's not going to happen. Second, it would make us Jacksonville, Florida.Pacm39960 wrote:Lets go crazy and say the County became part of the City, What would be the total sq miles? I know STL City is roughly 61. A city like Houston, TX (4th largest in US) has a smaller population of St Louis. WHere would STL rank in population? Top 10?
^ Jacksonville is extremely sprawled. It makes St. Louis look like NYC. If the city merged with the county we would still be 3 to 4 times denser than Jacksonville. Its a very SRAAAAAAAAAAAWWWLING city.
I am currently in the process of writing a research paper discussing the history from the beginning of the split, the numerous attempts to reunify the city and the county, and why St. Louis City and County need to merge. If you have any resources, i.e. links, documents, etc. concerning this issue could you please post them below, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
- 11K
Obviously you should read Lion of the Valley and Eric Sandweiss, who's written quite a bit about St. Louis may be a good resource (he's now a professor at Indiana University). The Missouri History Museum is an obvious place to get in touch with as well.
huberj,
I would start with Eric Sandweiss' book St. Louis: The Evolution of an American Landscape. Its a good read with great information. Look at citations in that book for further sources.
The St. Louis Home Rule Charter of 1876: Its Framing and Adoption by Thomas Barclay
Mapping Decline: St. Louis and the Fate of the American City by Colin Gordon (ok source)
St. Louis Plans: The Ideal and the Real St. Louis by Mark Tranel
Those are the best I have seen so far, but I would love any other sources as well. I am heavily interested in the possibility of a merger and relevant supportive or dissuasive argumentation!
I would start with Eric Sandweiss' book St. Louis: The Evolution of an American Landscape. Its a good read with great information. Look at citations in that book for further sources.
The St. Louis Home Rule Charter of 1876: Its Framing and Adoption by Thomas Barclay
Mapping Decline: St. Louis and the Fate of the American City by Colin Gordon (ok source)
St. Louis Plans: The Ideal and the Real St. Louis by Mark Tranel
Those are the best I have seen so far, but I would love any other sources as well. I am heavily interested in the possibility of a merger and relevant supportive or dissuasive argumentation!
Louisville, KY is often cited as an example of such a merger. (Although that was more of a true consolidation.) I believe a city/county merger would make a lot of sense for St. Louis, but was interested to hear that a lot of people in Louisville don't believe the merger with Jefferson County is making much of a difference in their area. (I work at KMOV Channel 4, and one of the reporters is working on this story: that will air 4/15)
To me, it seems like the immediate population increase that area could market would pay dividends, but years after the merger, I don't see many reports of business booming in that area... and downtown Louisville looks pretty much the same (except for the addition of the arena) Still, it seems like there would be much to gain in matters of efficiency.
To me, it seems like the immediate population increase that area could market would pay dividends, but years after the merger, I don't see many reports of business booming in that area... and downtown Louisville looks pretty much the same (except for the addition of the arena) Still, it seems like there would be much to gain in matters of efficiency.
The difference that seems lost on the public is that Slay is not proposing a merger and I wish that the same people who got Prop A would get behind his message. I can not think of any reasons why the regions big employers, educational institutions and the likes would not endorse his proposal.
The pros of course is some decent savings for consolidating health and human services (which would likely be based out of Clayton. The second pro is my minds is parks. We already have some great parks in either the city or county and we as residents are already paying for zoo, museums, science center together. It would be nice to see a consolidated push for the Greenway Plan.
But the big plus in my mind is getting economic development and marketing under one roof as well as provide a vehicle to finally get Lambert under city/county ownership. You want a campus setting near your suburban home, we got it in St. Louis. You want an urban center and loft district with transit to the airport, we got it in St. Louis. You want some world class parks, cultural and educational institutions accessible by transit, we got it in St. Louis. You want freeway, rail or river or all of the above with a free trade zone to boot, we got it in St. Louis.
The pros of course is some decent savings for consolidating health and human services (which would likely be based out of Clayton. The second pro is my minds is parks. We already have some great parks in either the city or county and we as residents are already paying for zoo, museums, science center together. It would be nice to see a consolidated push for the Greenway Plan.
But the big plus in my mind is getting economic development and marketing under one roof as well as provide a vehicle to finally get Lambert under city/county ownership. You want a campus setting near your suburban home, we got it in St. Louis. You want an urban center and loft district with transit to the airport, we got it in St. Louis. You want some world class parks, cultural and educational institutions accessible by transit, we got it in St. Louis. You want freeway, rail or river or all of the above with a free trade zone to boot, we got it in St. Louis.
another advantage is that we would lose that ridiculous "Most Dangerous City in America" label. With the city crime numbers being a part of the populous county, we will become a very safe city overnight! 
Good read on this subject is Fragmented by design why st. louis has so many governments by
E. Terrence Jones.
E. Terrence Jones.
Fragmented by Design in certainly a thought-provoking look at the idea of merging the City and the County, although many people on this forum would likely object Professor Jones' conclusions. Basically, Jones argues that St. Louis is politically fragmented because St. Louisans like it that way. He uses a Tiebout-esque argument maintaining that there is a municipality for everyone in St. Louis County, and that the multiplicity of governments here allows residents to determine their optimal level of services and taxes. Thus, residents of the area are very able to "vote with their feet."
Jones concludes that St. Louisans, are in fact, willing to buy into regionalism, but only at the "retail" level. Conversely, we are not willing to purchase "wholesale" regionalism (cute analogy, I know). As evidence, he points to all the regional entities, special purpose governments, and quasi-governmental districts we have throughout that are regional in scope (Civic Progress, RCGA, Great Rivers Greenway, East-West Gateway, Bi-State Development Agency, Metropolitan Sewer District, the Major Case Squad, Regional Justice Information Systems, The St. Louis Junior College District, the Zoo-Museum District, etc).
While the Jones paints a grim picture for any sort of regional consolidation, it is a MUST READ! It is relatively short (just over a 100 pages), and it provides a very clear legal, political, and economic history of the Divorce of 1876 and the numerous attempts to re-merge the City and County over the past century.
Jones concludes that St. Louisans, are in fact, willing to buy into regionalism, but only at the "retail" level. Conversely, we are not willing to purchase "wholesale" regionalism (cute analogy, I know). As evidence, he points to all the regional entities, special purpose governments, and quasi-governmental districts we have throughout that are regional in scope (Civic Progress, RCGA, Great Rivers Greenway, East-West Gateway, Bi-State Development Agency, Metropolitan Sewer District, the Major Case Squad, Regional Justice Information Systems, The St. Louis Junior College District, the Zoo-Museum District, etc).
While the Jones paints a grim picture for any sort of regional consolidation, it is a MUST READ! It is relatively short (just over a 100 pages), and it provides a very clear legal, political, and economic history of the Divorce of 1876 and the numerous attempts to re-merge the City and County over the past century.
- 2,772
Serious question for all my party people's here @ UrbanSTL. How would merging with the county affect the *city's* crime numbers?courtland wrote:another advantage is that we would lose that ridiculous "Most Dangerous City in America" label. With the city crime numbers being a part of the populous county, we will become a very safe city overnight!
- 11K
^ It wouldn't affect the numbers but it would greatly affect the crime rates - which is what is reported.
For instance, if St. Louis City had 175 murders and there are 350,000 people in the city, the the murder rate is 0.0005 or 0.05%. If St. Louis City/County had 250 murders and 1,350,000 residents then the murder rate is 0.000185 or 0.0185%.
The first number makes St. Louis one of the "most dangerous" cities in the country. The second number makes St. Louis one of the safest cities in the country.
Now before someone calls BS and says we would just be playing with the numbers, let me say that's false. The issue isn't about hiding crime (or combating crime), it's about comparing apples to apples. If Memphis, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Atlanta and on and on and on report crime numbers using a much larger geographic area that includes many wealthy parts of the city than St. Louis then that's unfair, negatively reflects on St. Louis and has a negative impact on our region. So calling St. Louis one of the "most dangerous" cities in the county is simply disingenuous.
For instance, if St. Louis City had 175 murders and there are 350,000 people in the city, the the murder rate is 0.0005 or 0.05%. If St. Louis City/County had 250 murders and 1,350,000 residents then the murder rate is 0.000185 or 0.0185%.
The first number makes St. Louis one of the "most dangerous" cities in the country. The second number makes St. Louis one of the safest cities in the country.
Now before someone calls BS and says we would just be playing with the numbers, let me say that's false. The issue isn't about hiding crime (or combating crime), it's about comparing apples to apples. If Memphis, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Atlanta and on and on and on report crime numbers using a much larger geographic area that includes many wealthy parts of the city than St. Louis then that's unfair, negatively reflects on St. Louis and has a negative impact on our region. So calling St. Louis one of the "most dangerous" cities in the county is simply disingenuous.
^^^ What about cities like San Francisco and Boston who are around the same physical size or smaller than STL but don't show up as high on the lists as STL? Are these cities included with their larger counties as well? I don't know the answer, so I'm just asking.
SF specifically:
SF specifically:
The City and County of San Francisco is the fourth most populous city in California and the 12th most populous city in the United States, with a 2008 estimated population of 808,977.[9] The only consolidated city-county in California,[11] it encompasses a land area of 46.7 square miles (121 km2)[12] on the northern end of the San Francisco Peninsula, making it the second-most densely populated large city (greater than 200,000 population) in the United States.
But see I don't think this is the way it would work. If the City merely entered the County as yet another municipality, the City of Saint Louis would still make the "most dangerous" cities list because the list is done by municipality, not by county. The only way for the City to reduce it's crime stats is to totally consolidate with the County, or significant portions of it.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ It wouldn't affect the numbers but it would greatly affect the crime rates - which is what is reported.
For instance, if St. Louis City had 175 murders and there are 350,000 people in the city, the the murder rate is 0.0005 or 0.05%. If St. Louis City/County had 250 murders and 1,350,000 residents then the murder rate is 0.000185 or 0.0185%.
The first number makes St. Louis one of the "most dangerous" cities in the country. The second number makes St. Louis one of the safest cities in the country.
Now before someone calls BS and says we would just be playing with the numbers, let me say that's false. The issue isn't about hiding crime (or combating crime), it's about comparing apples to apples. If Memphis, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Atlanta and on and on and on report crime numbers using a much larger geographic area that includes many wealthy parts of the city than St. Louis then that's unfair, negatively reflects on St. Louis and has a negative impact on our region. So calling St. Louis one of the "most dangerous" cities in the county is simply disingenuous.
- 11K
^ You're probably right. I guess the City and St. Louis County could agree to aggregate crime numbers for reporting purposes as well.
Oh, and Boston, the city itself, contains many more affluent areas than St. Louis City while some of the more dangerous areas are outside the city proper.
Oh, and Boston, the city itself, contains many more affluent areas than St. Louis City while some of the more dangerous areas are outside the city proper.
My question is can we legitimately fall back on the "physical size" argument.
I get the apples to apples thing, but places like SF (yes I know SF has some real crime problems) show that just because a big city is small physically, doesn't mean it's going to end up at the top of some silly crime list or have a "dangerous" reputation.
I'm not saying SF & other cities don't have their problems, but in the end isn't it really all about the make up of the city rather than physical size?
While I think a City/County merger would be beneficial in some ways, it does seem like we're apt to think that if this happened everything is instantly better and awesome. Sure the numbers will change, but the problems still remain, and STL has some very real problems.
I get the apples to apples thing, but places like SF (yes I know SF has some real crime problems) show that just because a big city is small physically, doesn't mean it's going to end up at the top of some silly crime list or have a "dangerous" reputation.
I'm not saying SF & other cities don't have their problems, but in the end isn't it really all about the make up of the city rather than physical size?
While I think a City/County merger would be beneficial in some ways, it does seem like we're apt to think that if this happened everything is instantly better and awesome. Sure the numbers will change, but the problems still remain, and STL has some very real problems.