Better Together is a Rex Sinquefield backed organization. While I generally applaud the movement to unite city and county, I fear the end result will be regressive taxation that places a greater burden on the lower and middle classes. I wonder what the public thinks about this likely outcome or if they see it coming at all.
Under a plan where St Louis City goes away the earnings tax is likely to go with it. Is that what you're getting at?
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Nice meeting yesterday for the launch of Better Together STL. Lots of regional politicians, and a whole lot of media.
Highlights:
- From all speakers: This is NOT a call for merger, reunification, or anything else. This is all about getting the data necessary to better address STL City and STL County being separate entities.
- Process: They want to start by gathering this data, with an initial focus on fire districts in the County, but to include all governments in STL County (where they say total gov't costs are more than $2BB, not sure if that number includes the City as well). They will then go through a best practices analysis, contrast with current operations, and seek to define the best things that Metro STL can do going forward. They did say that there is no presupposition towards reunification (although I bet they expect that determination to result from all this work).
- Mayor Slay: We're trying to figure out "what the people in the City and the County are willing to support."
- County Exec Dooley: "We don't grow individually; we grow collectively going forward." He emphasized the "Global competition" in which STL is engaged economically, not just between or amongst municipalities.
- Ultimate goal: Information.
- Schools will not be part of the initial consideration because of the "obvious" differences between City and County schools.
- The efforts going forward will be conducted in a fully non-partisan manner, with no consideration towards any special interests or individualized deomographics. Not a Dem-GOP thing, not a Black-White thing, et.al.
- Ambassador George Herbert Walker III is the initiator behind this; Nancy Rice will direct the efforts.
- There was one lady who was against this, who I saw get in front of all the news cameras to let her opposition be known. Sure enough, every local network broadcasted her comments.
Takeaway statement: What would STL look like if we were starting our government from scratch in 2015?
Afterwards, in a conversation between a known (and well-liked) City alderman and a County Councilman, I heard them speaking about the possibilities for success with these efforts. They both also acknowledged how Rex's presence with the organization does exist, and that they both hope his personal involvement will not in any way influence either the data gathering & analysis, nor the opinion of others as to this being anything but a fully bipartisan effort.
The feeling of the whole thing was like a traditional groundbreaking, with everything but the shovels. I'm hopeful that this will provide us all with the cold, useful, non-partisan info we need to best consider unification.
Highlights:
- From all speakers: This is NOT a call for merger, reunification, or anything else. This is all about getting the data necessary to better address STL City and STL County being separate entities.
- Process: They want to start by gathering this data, with an initial focus on fire districts in the County, but to include all governments in STL County (where they say total gov't costs are more than $2BB, not sure if that number includes the City as well). They will then go through a best practices analysis, contrast with current operations, and seek to define the best things that Metro STL can do going forward. They did say that there is no presupposition towards reunification (although I bet they expect that determination to result from all this work).
- Mayor Slay: We're trying to figure out "what the people in the City and the County are willing to support."
- County Exec Dooley: "We don't grow individually; we grow collectively going forward." He emphasized the "Global competition" in which STL is engaged economically, not just between or amongst municipalities.
- Ultimate goal: Information.
- Schools will not be part of the initial consideration because of the "obvious" differences between City and County schools.
- The efforts going forward will be conducted in a fully non-partisan manner, with no consideration towards any special interests or individualized deomographics. Not a Dem-GOP thing, not a Black-White thing, et.al.
- Ambassador George Herbert Walker III is the initiator behind this; Nancy Rice will direct the efforts.
- There was one lady who was against this, who I saw get in front of all the news cameras to let her opposition be known. Sure enough, every local network broadcasted her comments.
Takeaway statement: What would STL look like if we were starting our government from scratch in 2015?
Afterwards, in a conversation between a known (and well-liked) City alderman and a County Councilman, I heard them speaking about the possibilities for success with these efforts. They both also acknowledged how Rex's presence with the organization does exist, and that they both hope his personal involvement will not in any way influence either the data gathering & analysis, nor the opinion of others as to this being anything but a fully bipartisan effort.
The feeling of the whole thing was like a traditional groundbreaking, with everything but the shovels. I'm hopeful that this will provide us all with the cold, useful, non-partisan info we need to best consider unification.
Here's a couple of good Stl Beacon stories:
Of devils and details: 8 potential obstacles to city-county reunion
https://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/32 ... _questions
On the trail: Earnings tax could be piece of city-county puzzle
https://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/33 ... tax_112113
Of devils and details: 8 potential obstacles to city-county reunion
https://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/32 ... _questions
On the trail: Earnings tax could be piece of city-county puzzle
https://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/33 ... tax_112113
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Suburban haterz from U-City to South County are lining up in opposition to any talk of city county merger.
PD story: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 99a06.html
A South County Republican committeeman, Judd says his resistance to a merger is grounded in economics, not politics. “I gotta believe the city is looking for a rich uncle to pay their bills,” he said.
I always thought Republicans were proponents of smaller govt.Judd’s objective in 2014 is to share the anti-merger gospel with fire district officials and municipalities across the county.
PD story: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 99a06.html
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I never really understood city haters in U city do they just not cross skinker or go to the loop ever?, or are they planning to move further out into the county??
Report: St. Louis City-County merger would not force county to assume debt
This probably isn't enough to persuade those dead set against reentry or merger, but it may help persuade some fence-sitters.St. Louis County would not assume debt incurred by the city of St. Louis should voters approve a merger of the two governments, according to a new report.
St. Louis County “cannot be held in anyway responsible” for the city’s debt, according to a memorandum prepared by a national law firm with offices in St. Louis that is scheduled to be released this week as part of a larger study.
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There is nothing set to ensure government does get smaller. We could just end up with all the government workers being kept on the job and monster sized departments. Giant, unresponsive departments are no improvement over various smaller ones. At least the smaller ones would be easier to change, influence, etc.Mark Groth wrote:Suburban haterz from U-City to South County are lining up in opposition to any talk of city county merger.
A South County Republican committeeman, Judd says his resistance to a merger is grounded in economics, not politics. “I gotta believe the city is looking for a rich uncle to pay their bills,” he said.I always thought Republicans were proponents of smaller govt.Judd’s objective in 2014 is to share the anti-merger gospel with fire district officials and municipalities across the county.
PD story: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 99a06.html
I went through the budget data that Better Together compiled and found that the 24:1 cities pay about $455K for legal services and that included zeros for eight of them for either not having an available budget or ambiguous numbers. The 24:1 cities have a population of 44k. Chesterfield spends $268k and has a pop of 47k.
St. Louis Tech Titans Get Behind City-County Reunion
Michael Calhoun
February 11, 2014 2:08 PM
ST. LOUIS (KMOX) - Local tech innovators are joining other business leaders in expressing public support for city-county reunification.
Jim McKelvey, co-founder of Square, always seems like he’s on a plane somewhere. He says the ‘new’ movers and shakers are leading a renaissance in the city.
“For years it looked like the county was where everything was at and the city was on sort of a downward spiral and now I think in many ways that’s reversed. A lot of the growth we’ve seen in St. Louis especially with young people moving to the town, it’s because we’ve got this great city,” says McKelvey.
link: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/02/11/ ... y-reunion/
Michael Calhoun
February 11, 2014 2:08 PM
ST. LOUIS (KMOX) - Local tech innovators are joining other business leaders in expressing public support for city-county reunification.
Jim McKelvey, co-founder of Square, always seems like he’s on a plane somewhere. He says the ‘new’ movers and shakers are leading a renaissance in the city.
“For years it looked like the county was where everything was at and the city was on sort of a downward spiral and now I think in many ways that’s reversed. A lot of the growth we’ve seen in St. Louis especially with young people moving to the town, it’s because we’ve got this great city,” says McKelvey.
link: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/02/11/ ... y-reunion/
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I'm so tired of that Ed Golterman guy! He's like a roach you can never get rid of 
.Im all for city county reunification its time to get the party started on this... If it weren't for the City the county wouldn't even be where it's at now..
.Im all for city county reunification its time to get the party started on this... If it weren't for the City the county wouldn't even be where it's at now..I'll be live tweeting the SLU Law symposium today @stlunite
United We Stand or United We Fall: The Reunification of St. Louis City and County
http://www.slu.edu/school-of-law-home/n ... osium-2014
United We Stand or United We Fall: The Reunification of St. Louis City and County
http://www.slu.edu/school-of-law-home/n ... osium-2014
^ Nice! I'm the underdressed guy sitting in the back corner in the black Saint Louis University hoodie.
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Can someone who was there please provide a description of the tone in the room? Was it County vitriol? Was is City pushback? Is it constructive and civil or an opinionated and unorganzied/unmoderated train wreck? I am wondering if this Better Together thing should be taken seriously or if it is just another brick in the wall...
I wish I could've made it. It sounds like a really solid list of speakers, not really directly related to Better Together or any other group. I will say though that I think it's a mistake that in many of these discussions, only City and County-level voices are typically present. I understand that legislatively, re-entry would happen on those levels, but politically, municipal leaders in St. Louis County can have a big influence. If County municipal leaders feel like they are being cut out of the process and that they could stand to be harmed by City re-entry, many of them have a solid public platform to organize opposition within their communities. I don't think many of them will take gladly to the idea or public perception that the Mayor of the City of St. Louis could become an over-influential mayor in St. Louis County, above them or their communities.
You're likely right, DannyJ, but they'd be silly to think that's not what would happen or what should happen. All cities are not equal. The Mayor of New York City is arguably more powerful (at least in perception) than the Governor of New York. That's just the way it is.
But I agree they may feel as if it's unfair.
But I agree they may feel as if it's unfair.
^Sure, it's unavoidable that the Mayor of the City would hold more public influence, but excluding County municipal leaders from the public process and thereby making it a rallying point for them to oppose re-entry in their communities isn't inevitable. With the tangible benefits of re-entry already a bit dubious, it only takes a municipal leader a bit of public slight to take it to their constituents to convince them that the re-entry of the City could be a negative thing for their community. If Gerry Welch isn't happy with how this is looking for municipal mayors, you can bet a number of others will catch on.
I understand it's small time politics and pretty annoying, but unsurprisingly, the existing political fragmentation within both the City and County is in itself a significant reason why the merger or re-entry hasn't happened sooner (or may not yet happen). I'm not saying that 90 municipal mayors and their city councils all have to be won over for this to happen, but at least some of the influential ones will have to feel involved.
I understand it's small time politics and pretty annoying, but unsurprisingly, the existing political fragmentation within both the City and County is in itself a significant reason why the merger or re-entry hasn't happened sooner (or may not yet happen). I'm not saying that 90 municipal mayors and their city councils all have to be won over for this to happen, but at least some of the influential ones will have to feel involved.
Really good today. Of course you get lots of warm and fuzzies being in a room with mostly like minded people. See my and others twitter feeds for a run down #mergestl
I asked Better Together if they would put out what some of the ideas out there would look like. People have specific questions like what happens to the sales tax pool or what happens to the earnings tax. It's hard to answer these when there's no proposal out there because the answer depends on what's proposed. When we use the generic term "merger" people can graft on their worst nightmare answers to those questions. Said they won't do that.
The weakest panel was the one right after lunch. The history guy was great but the other two just weren't up to speed on our weird set up to answer the questions so the audience had to converse about it. That's OK, but the folks on the stage should know this stuff, that's why they're up there.
And Terry Jones pissed me off again. I'm on board with incrementalism, but I view reentry as incremental. He and Todd Swanstrom feel this distracts from the other conversations we should be having. Wished they be outspoken about CAR, that's a resource, civic discussion hog. I see reentry as a luanchpad to tacking other fronts, with representation ont he county council and voting for county executive we're more on the same team.
Swanstrom talked about how the city/county divide is being replaced by a north/south divide. I think the city/county divide exacerbates the N/S divide. Ex which Metrolink expansion do we do? County is paying a ton of Metro tax so it says Westport, when we know the right one is N-S. If the city were in the county then it's a no brainer and we can on to something else.
I asked Better Together if they would put out what some of the ideas out there would look like. People have specific questions like what happens to the sales tax pool or what happens to the earnings tax. It's hard to answer these when there's no proposal out there because the answer depends on what's proposed. When we use the generic term "merger" people can graft on their worst nightmare answers to those questions. Said they won't do that.
The weakest panel was the one right after lunch. The history guy was great but the other two just weren't up to speed on our weird set up to answer the questions so the audience had to converse about it. That's OK, but the folks on the stage should know this stuff, that's why they're up there.
And Terry Jones pissed me off again. I'm on board with incrementalism, but I view reentry as incremental. He and Todd Swanstrom feel this distracts from the other conversations we should be having. Wished they be outspoken about CAR, that's a resource, civic discussion hog. I see reentry as a luanchpad to tacking other fronts, with representation ont he county council and voting for county executive we're more on the same team.
Swanstrom talked about how the city/county divide is being replaced by a north/south divide. I think the city/county divide exacerbates the N/S divide. Ex which Metrolink expansion do we do? County is paying a ton of Metro tax so it says Westport, when we know the right one is N-S. If the city were in the county then it's a no brainer and we can on to something else.
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As a region St.Louis City and County need to merge in order for the entire Metro region to prosper... As a human i do see black white mexican and so forth i wouldn't lie about that but i do see all of us as one.. We all share the same amenities together and want just about the same.. We all deserve better and we owe it all to our future new generations of St.Louisans ...
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I wish I could attend these things, but responsibilities exist. What is the vibe from the public. Is it county skepticism, city skepticism, neutral or optimism? Are the haters/status quo seekers going to be louder than the proponents?
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Here's my take:Mark Groth wrote:I wish I could attend these things, but responsibilities exist. What is the vibe from the public. Is it county skepticism, city skepticism, neutral or optimism? Are the haters/status quo seekers going to be louder than the proponents?
1. The engaged people in the City see the pluses.
2. City "County" office holders (i.e., Treasurer, License Collector, etc. - not necessarily current elected officials, but whomever holds the office at the time that there is an actual concrete proposal), who will likely see their offices eliminated under merger or re-entry will fight for survival and could, potentially, turn things nasty (race-baiting, etc.)
3. Most people in the county still need a concrete reason to be in favor. Marketing advantages (i.e., jumping to the 10th biggest city by population, 140th City by crime) aren't enough.
4. The older, fox news demographic in the County will always see it as some sort of bailout of the City. Not sure what could get them to change their minds. Reason, reality and logic will likely be of little use.
5. Consolidating/disincorporating some of the 90+ cities in the county should be more of a county priority than city-county merger.
The Treasurer, Tishaura Jones, spoke on Friday and said she was neutral. Don't know about the others. We might only see how the cookie crumbles when there's a real chance of something going on the ballot (2015 or 2016, I suspect).
I used to be gung-ho on the idea of the City and County becoming one big St. Louis, but after seeing what's happened in Toronto post-amalgamation, I'm not so sure...their suburban yahoos elected Rob Ford, and ours could always do something similar. Maybe our best bet is to try to grow the city using its inherent appeal to people who actually LIKE cities more than suburbs. If we were successful enough at that, the Great Divorce wouldn't matter so much.
^ Exactly. St. Louis has its issues to address (crime, population loss, decentralization), as does St. Louis County (municipality-fatigue, stagnation of the tax base, TIF-fighting). They can each work on those NOW as a region, for the betterment of the region.
The simplest answer is rejoining the County as a City -- just like pretty much every other major city in America. There'll be some stuff to figure out regarding government duties and tax rolls, sure, but St. Louis would again be the central city within the County. Wouldn't change things overnight (and I'll fight the first person to bring up the shady number-crunching possibilities for crime stats
) , but it'd put us on a separate but equal level with all the other County municipalities -- which is really what this should be all about.
The simplest answer is rejoining the County as a City -- just like pretty much every other major city in America. There'll be some stuff to figure out regarding government duties and tax rolls, sure, but St. Louis would again be the central city within the County. Wouldn't change things overnight (and I'll fight the first person to bring up the shady number-crunching possibilities for crime stats
) , but it'd put us on a separate but equal level with all the other County municipalities -- which is really what this should be all about.I wish a partial merger were a possibility.
That is re-joining the county AND merging with the inner-ring suburbs into a single city. So University City, Clayton, Richmond Heights, Maplewood, Shrewsbury, etc.
I've always said I support a full merger, but I really wouldn't mind if the super sprawl suburbs remained just that. We could expand the geographic boundaries a reasonable amount rather than a huge amount and bring the most urban parts of the region under the same umbrella.
That is re-joining the county AND merging with the inner-ring suburbs into a single city. So University City, Clayton, Richmond Heights, Maplewood, Shrewsbury, etc.
I've always said I support a full merger, but I really wouldn't mind if the super sprawl suburbs remained just that. We could expand the geographic boundaries a reasonable amount rather than a huge amount and bring the most urban parts of the region under the same umbrella.