But Chouteau's lake already has bridges over it. I'm not advocating anything, I'm just stating the obvious.
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The lake should at least be able to handle small low open top water taxi's for transportation, dinner cruises, and fun. Like the ones shown here. The 1-mile long canal is totally artificial and the water is only 4' deep.
Water Taxis
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Water Taxis
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If this is the connector from a Vandeventer park to the more open lake past Jefferson I'll take (though I'd like to add some tree - yes, I know they take time to grow).
I'd like to see the bridges revamped that (would) cross over the lake. I brought it up earlier, but the bridges going over the international waterway in florida are really cool looking, and could be illuminated at night to really make things pop.
Bad phrase, I know, but it's been a long week.
Bad phrase, I know, but it's been a long week.
And if you want any chance of sailing – (taking the dimensions of a sunfish which is a very small one/two seater sailboat) they need to be at least 5 feet deep (they take about 39" of depth minimum) and more than 15 feet high....
You can sail on a lake much smaller in size than Creve Coeur, but it would be massively cool to have a marina (or put-in-point) at one end and then have restaurants/destinations with a dock around... so that you could actually sail around and have different places to "go"...
Of coarse the best would be to have it connected to the Mississippi river and to have a real marina in the lake... so that you could have pictures of the arch with sail boats going up and down the river... but that’s not feasible for many reasons.....
You can sail on a lake much smaller in size than Creve Coeur, but it would be massively cool to have a marina (or put-in-point) at one end and then have restaurants/destinations with a dock around... so that you could actually sail around and have different places to "go"...
Of coarse the best would be to have it connected to the Mississippi river and to have a real marina in the lake... so that you could have pictures of the arch with sail boats going up and down the river... but that’s not feasible for many reasons.....
So why don't we lobby for this development? We have great ideas established already so why don't we take the next step?
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This was brought up in another thread so I thought I'd post a story about the river project in Seoul. http://environment.guardian.co.uk/conse ... 11,00.html
The coolest thing is that they actually left these highway supports up as a reminder of their once ill-conceived plan for the city:
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Big things are possible: it's just a matter of money (assuming there's vision and leadership)
The coolest thing is that they actually left these highway supports up as a reminder of their once ill-conceived plan for the city:
Big things are possible: it's just a matter of money (assuming there's vision and leadership)
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I flew over downtown recently and saw train switching yards North of downtown along the river and a large train switching area in East St. Louis.
Does St. Louis really need the big train switching yard right downtown where Chouteau Lake will go (in theory)? I think the land should be more valuable as downtown property than a train switching yard given the high number of other yards around the St. Louis area. I don't know about you, but I say the area looks blighted and is eligible for some serious tax breaks as a lake and office and residential tower development.
Does St. Louis really need the big train switching yard right downtown where Chouteau Lake will go (in theory)? I think the land should be more valuable as downtown property than a train switching yard given the high number of other yards around the St. Louis area. I don't know about you, but I say the area looks blighted and is eligible for some serious tax breaks as a lake and office and residential tower development.
Actually, following up on Gary's question, who OWNS the train lines that run through the valley? Are they all Union Pacific, or does each of the major railroads own a line through there?
^ I believe it's a mixture of TRRA, Union Pacific, and Burlington Northern, though I believe the 12th St yard itself is Union Pacific, per the last 2 pages of the TRRA's mainline map (pdf). It really depends on how far west you look. At the very least, the TRRA owns the MacArthur Bridge, approaches, and rail leading to the Amtrak station.
I say, reduce the capacity to what is needed, eliminate the YARD aspect, and KEEP the trains. I think it would be cool to have an urban park in the form of Chourteau's pond, with the trains running through it. Imagine it 20 years down the line when the trees start getting big. Amtrak and freight trains cruising through a park along the ponds and streams. There is no reason to keep the current yard capacity at early 20th century levels when we have a fraction of the rail traffic moving through. Anybody who says we need that much of a yard there is just resisting change because it is easier.
Rumour had it, years ago, that UP was going to move operations to Dupo and keep the double mainline through downtown.
TGE-ATW wrote:I think it would be cool to have an urban park in the form of Chourteau's pond, with the trains running through it. Imagine it 20 years down the line when the trees start getting big. Amtrak and freight trains cruising through a park along the ponds and streams.
I happen to live near some active tracks with a mature park between me and that track... there is nothing romantic about a park when a freight train in driving thru at 50 miles an hour. Trains in general are nice to see once in a while... but they are not an attraction for a development that isn't based around trains.
I can imagine how a couple of day time trains (mainly Amtrak - because of the location of the new multimodal station) would be cool (assuming they never have to blow their horn), but having freighters run by every hour or two -- this doesn't sound inviting to me -- and might not to the residence and companies who are thinking about moving there.
Yeah, I guess you're right. I used to live by some tracks too and I wasn't crazy about them. Especially that sonic boom when the cars start to move and all ram into eachother. Also, the whistle can be very annoying. I guess the picture I had in my mind wasn't thought through very well. The small amtrak trains might be ok though. I'm just trying to think of ways this thing can get done and I don't know if the RR will ever give up that land.
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I lived next to RR tracks for 18yrs. You get used to them and after a while you don't even notice it.
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe there is a speed restriction in DT St. Louis. If you've ever observed the trains going through the area, or over the bridge for that matter, they are almost never more than creeping. Also, all trains (even Metrolink) are required by federal law to sound their horns at grade crossings.
crbswiss wrote: Also, all trains (even Metrolink) are required by federal law to sound their horns at grade crossings.
I read in an article that Kirkwood somehow got around this... but there were a few incidents at crossings and the powers that be threatened to make trains use horns again. According to the article Kirkwood cops were now going to be much more forceful around the surface crossings, because they don’t want the trains horn blowing.
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^ I'm not sure that having an active train line through a Chouteau Greenway would really be that much of a problem. There isn't going to be residential abutting the tracks and it's not going to be a sit and picnic type of park as much as it will be a walk/bike/commute/move about the city type of park.
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If it was reduced to a single track along the edge of the lake, the development designers could possibly cover it with an earth berm that would overlook the lake -- kind of like the one that covers trains that go between the Arch and the river. I bet some people who visit the Arch don't even realize there are trains there.
You don't mean a berm that covers the trains, you mean a berm that screens the trains right?
^^ I would hope if it is implemented and the area takes off as we hope it would, the lake district would get several residential towers right on the lake. And I see people in those office/residential towers wanting, on a nice day, to eat lunch outside next to that superb lake/park. People can ride bikes and jog; but this should be planned as a world class working urban park. I see people using the park land, the trails, and the lake (I still advocate a Marina in the lake – with a canal built to the Mississippi river for pleasure craft) while the towers surrounding the lake are full.
One thing about this discussion is that a train only has to blow its horn if it crosses a road at grade... if it doesn't cross any roads, it need not blow its horn?!? The Chouteau’s Lake district, I would assume, isn't going to have massive numbers of cross streets.
One thing about this discussion is that a train only has to blow its horn if it crosses a road at grade... if it doesn't cross any roads, it need not blow its horn?!? The Chouteau’s Lake district, I would assume, isn't going to have massive numbers of cross streets.
I love the sound of trains...at night, echoing in the distance, as I gently drift off to sleep. Probably not right outside my window, though.
I loved trains until they started going by at 4:00 am... and as bpe235 said -- eventually you get used to it... except when you are trying to fall asleep or what ever. Plus as stubborn as UP and other rail companies can be... it would be best for the development to relocate them now, somewhere else (such that the only entity using the one or two tracks left is amtrak) otherwise if this project goes over well... years from now we will be constrained from expanding more becuase the lines are in place... it is better for everyone to get rid of as much of it as possible.
They installed a 1/4 mile long urban waterway in Durham. NC. Something similar to this could be done as part of the Chouteau Lake district.
http://www.cooltownstudios.com/mt/archives/001050.html
http://www.cooltownstudios.com/mt/archives/001050.html
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I would like to see this mega project completed more than any other, but it years and years away and seems to be nothing than a concept at this point. The best thing this project could do is provide better connection to South St. Louis. A wide, pedestrian-friendly Compton, Grand and Jefferson AND a bike path/pedestrian crossing or two at Ewing, Theresa and just north of Lafayette Square.