Brickline Greenway- Formerly Chouteau Greenway

bastiat · PostSep 12, 2006#2262006-09-12T04:17+00:00

Mill204 wrote:
Bastiat wrote:What's the minimum distance to hold any trials at all? It should be long enough to hold some events if that is possible at all.
If you're talking Olympic trials level, according to FISA's rules for a standard course:

minimum 8 lanes

minimum 2,150m length

minimum 135m width, ideally 162m

minimum 3.5m depth

as straight as possible

2,150m is equivalent to the distance from 8th St. to just past Jefferson Ave. Beijing 2008 and London 2012 will use new artificial lakes far from their city centers. Oklahoma City dammed the Oklahoma river.

Of course, there are lots of events that use shorter lengths, curves, and turnarounds. 8th to 18th is around 1000m.

Sorry, I meant races, not trials. Would it be possible for college meets or even high school club rowing?

stlmizzoutiger · PostSep 12, 2006#2272006-09-12T05:11+00:00

Bastiat wrote:
Mill204 wrote:
Bastiat wrote:What's the minimum distance to hold any trials at all? It should be long enough to hold some events if that is possible at all.
If you're talking Olympic trials level, according to FISA's rules for a standard course:

minimum 8 lanes

minimum 2,150m length

minimum 135m width, ideally 162m

minimum 3.5m depth

as straight as possible

2,150m is equivalent to the distance from 8th St. to just past Jefferson Ave. Beijing 2008 and London 2012 will use new artificial lakes far from their city centers. Oklahoma City dammed the Oklahoma river.

Of course, there are lots of events that use shorter lengths, curves, and turnarounds. 8th to 18th is around 1000m.

Sorry, I meant races, not trials. Would it be possible for college meets or even high school club rowing?

I'd be more worried about this project becoming reality and the possibilities of new high rise infrastructure than the length of an artificial lake and if the artificial lake would need a pumping system. Those problems pale in comparison with the actual issue of getting this project to reality.

trent · PostSep 13, 2006#2282006-09-13T00:19+00:00

Starting out, the lake would be smaller, but eventually, you could expand it quite aways. Looking at the makeup of the land area south of 64/40...it appears to have a pretty good trench running from 8th until about Compton, or just short of Grand.

MattnSTL · PostSep 13, 2006#2292006-09-13T03:31+00:00

I've been holding off on posting anything because I was asked to say nothing more than I will post, but Chouteau's Lake is still alive. It's still in planning being such a large project. No firm plans by anyone to actually build it, but there is a plan. With this in mind, buildings definitely could be built to take advantage of the lake.

Great River's Greenway owns one of the large parking lot's so at least something there could be done. I haven't seen the actual plans, so I don't know exactly how it is planned to be built or exactly where.

gerwitz · PostSep 13, 2006#2302006-09-13T18:50+00:00

To add to the hearsay, I've been told twice that Richard Baron is "determined" to make this project happen. I am optimistic about the project, and think it's so "silent" because Baron has enough resources and connections of his own that he doesn't need to use public opinion to influence the City to assist.

(Slay did mention the project at his last inauguration, all.)

jlblues · PostSep 13, 2006#2312006-09-13T19:55+00:00

^Who said it was dead?

I'd give this a much higher chance of happening in some form than Gateway Village/Bottle District, and this is a much more complex project. The only question is, what form? Will it just be a small lake between the stadium and Union Station, surrounded by a bunch of mid-rises, or something much greater. MBS received around $150 million in New Market Tax Credits recently, to use as they see fit. Plus there are other local developers, and capital providers, actively working with MBS to make something happen.

The delay in Ballpark Village also kind of hampers the Chouteau Lake development. If construction had started and tenants were signed for Ballpark Village already, then I could see the development of Chouteau Lake picking right up as BPV became substantially complete. The longer BPV is delayed, however, the more the two projects will compete, rather than complement, each other.

shadrach · PostSep 13, 2006#2322006-09-13T20:24+00:00

What's MSB?

MattnSTL · PostSep 13, 2006#2332006-09-13T20:31+00:00

McKormack Baron Salazaar or however it is spelt.

markofucity · PostSep 13, 2006#2342006-09-13T20:49+00:00

Richard Baron is my hero. I met him once I actually fely flustered.

I just hope this project comes together properly. I REALLY Hope it doesn't end up lookign like a suburban office park. The renderigns I've seen DO look like a suburban office park - with cheapy, fake "gravel beaches" all the way around it. ... It should be urban - meaning the water should come right up to the wall of the development surrounding it ... like Chicago's river walk - or the one in San Antonio ... actually, if anyone has seen Utrecht's (Netherlands) canal system I would model it just liek that

shadrach · PostSep 13, 2006#2352006-09-13T21:44+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:McKormack Baron Salazaar or however it is spelt.

Thanks. Since we like to use abbreviations for projects I thought it may have been a development in (gasp) KC!!

framer · PostSep 15, 2006#2362006-09-15T04:10+00:00

Richard Barron is a DO-ER, not a TALKER. I believe he'll get it done. How the project turns out - the density, etc. - will be up to the market to decide.

fromthelou · PostSep 20, 2006#2372006-09-20T17:33+00:00

To provoke some discussion, what if instead of building a pond that could end up mucky and resemble a drainage ditch or viaduct if poorly designed, we build an urban forest. Make the proposed lake area a heavily wooded forest like Rock Creek Park in Washington DC instead. The forest could be designed by the Missouri Botanical garden and contain some nice biking and running trails. I assume that people would like to live in close proximity to the urban forest.

urban elitist · PostSep 20, 2006#2382006-09-20T17:37+00:00

FromTheLou wrote:To provoke some discussion, what if instead of building a pond that could end up mucky and resemble a drainage ditch or viaduct if poorly designed, we build an urban forest. Make the proposed lake area a heavily wooded forest like Rock Creek Park in Washington DC instead. The forest could be designed by the Missouri Botanical garden and contain some nice biking and running trails. I assume that people would like to live in close proximity to the urban forest.

Absolutley not. We already have one of the largest urban parks in the nation, Forest Park, filling that exact nitch. Lakefront property will add far more diversity to our DT and will spur far more development than more underutilized green space. What developement has all that other wasted green space downtown spured? Nothing.

markofucity · PostSep 20, 2006#2392006-09-20T17:42+00:00

I would much rather have a lake than a forest ... we have enough "green space."

But I do have some misgivings about a city run lake. Has anyone noticed that the little pond alongside highway 40 right past the new Marriot is NEVER right? Its been there for about five years. Its no bigger than a backyard goldfish pond - and yet they can;t seem to get it right. Its always empyt or too low - with trash bag like material sticking up. Whats the deal with this thing? Can't we build a little office park pond? Doesn't bode well for a massive lake.

the central scrutinizer · PostSep 20, 2006#2402006-09-20T17:49+00:00

FromTheLou wrote:To provoke some discussion, what if instead of building a pond that could end up mucky and resemble a drainage ditch or viaduct if poorly designed, we build an urban forest. Make the proposed lake area a heavily wooded forest like Rock Creek Park in Washington DC instead. The forest could be designed by the Missouri Botanical garden and contain some nice biking and running trails. I assume that people would like to live in close proximity to the urban forest.

And all the trash now littering Lucas Park and the downtown sidewalks? Guess where they'll all end up at night.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 20, 2006#2412006-09-20T17:50+00:00

Rock Creek is nice, as is the far southwest corner of Forest Park - the only truly forested part of the park. I was recently in Vancouver and Stanley Park has amazing old-growth forest. It would be nice to have a mix of water/forest in a new development. I do think it's likely that part of any water feature built from downtown to Vandeventer would resemble a drainage ditch (there won't be dense development along the entire length of this project - ever) - so mix it up: An urban park similar to Lafayette Square/Benton/Tilles Park at the far west end - some open water from Spring to Compton (add housing, retail with chosen s. grand design competition winner) - 'forest' from Compton to Jefferson (it would be great to have some shade and a break in scenery along the way) - more open water/recreation from there downtown.

trent · PostSep 21, 2006#2422006-09-21T02:02+00:00

Waterfront property is always a huge draw. I wouldn't forego a lake for a forest. Plus, the ability to possibly see all those white sails in the water with the Arch in the background...just gets my grill going.

markofucity · PostSep 21, 2006#2432006-09-21T02:32+00:00

Are we really going to be able to sail on the lake - its not THAT big.

trent · PostSep 21, 2006#2442006-09-21T03:19+00:00

I imagine it won't have ocean sized sail boats, but if you can't make it big enough to sail a little, what's the point. The water has to be usable, moreso than the grand basin in Forest Park.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 21, 2006#2452006-09-21T04:28+00:00

My point is really that the entire length of this 'lake' isn't going to be developed - 4 miles of condos/office/retial on BOTH sides? I understand the water appeal, but a 'forest' would break it up and avoid the drainage ditch that surely awaits somewhere along the greenway. Besides, breaking up the development into segments - city park, small pond, forest, larger lake gives each area a sense of place. Why would we want the whole greenway to be the same? We wouldn't - and shouldn't for the same reasons that Forest Park is mixed. The variety allows us to orient ourselves, enjoy different settings and feel as though we've travelled somewhere. I wouldn't want the main lake to be reduced in size, but an open lake isn't going to extend all the way to Vandeventer anyway.

markofucity · PostSep 21, 2006#2462006-09-21T04:49+00:00

there's always the paddle boat ......

urban_dilettante · PostSep 21, 2006#2472006-09-21T05:22+00:00

But I do have some misgivings about a city run lake. Has anyone noticed that the little pond alongside highway 40 right past the new Marriot is NEVER right? Its been there for about five years. Its no bigger than a backyard goldfish pond - and yet they can;t seem to get it right. Its always empyt or too low - with trash bag like material sticking up. Whats the deal with this thing? Can't we build a little office park pond? Doesn't bode well for a massive lake.

i would have to agree. has anyone taken a look at benton park lake recently? it's repulsive. hasn't been cleaned in several years at least. isn't the department of parks/forestry responsible for its upkeep? someone in the neighborhood association said they inquired and were told that the lake could not be drained for cleaning... last i heard there was a bid out to replace the liner but that was early summer. anyone know whats up?

crbswiss · PostSep 21, 2006#2482006-09-21T14:00+00:00

We can always hope that they turn it over to the state park service. They've done a great job at Creve Coeur Lake.

tbspqr · PostSep 21, 2006#2492006-09-21T14:43+00:00

crbswiss wrote:We can always hope that they turn it over to the state park service. They've done a great job at Creve Coeur Lake.

I agree that this lake would be need be good ... but creve coeur was done with a lot of fiscal help from Page Avenue (compromise - we get a bridge over the park, you get a newer nicer park). If getting a new lake requires a $300 million road project to the exurbs... i say lakes aren't needed....

crbswiss · PostSep 21, 2006#2502006-09-21T14:53+00:00

My understanding was that the park recieved a land grant in exchange for the bridge, but that the park inprovments where done by the park service. If I'm wrong I take it back. Either way, it was a fairly nice park even before that happened.

Brickline Greenway- Formerly Chouteau Greenway

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