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PostNov 07, 2007#51

innov8ion wrote:
phoaddict wrote:And I wouldn't necessarily think Don Quixote...he was living in a fantasy world...



How is what we've discussed here anything close to being just fantasy???
I totally appreciate vision and challenging the status quo but every Don Quixote can use a Sancho Panza and vice versa. Guess I don't understand how you find so much good in St. Louis yet also deem it so mediocre. But the biggest niggle is that your rants so often tend to come off as patronizing. Just curious and don't take this the wrong way, but how old are you?



There was a lot of fantasy in the post. Increasing spending to eliminate gangs and crime? Sorry, but it's not that simple and doesn't address the root cause. Easier said than done.



Take over the Post Dispatch and replace it with young, forward-thinking optimists? Uhh, ok. I, for one, value diversity and find this pollyannish suggestion a bit amusing.


Haha, ok the Post Dispatch thing was sarcastic. Of course that would be impossible... But what would be feasible is if more young people with progressive and well-rounded minds start to "take over"...or participate.



The crime thing, hell if i know how to do it! Does anyone know how to do it? But it's something we have to focus on, and be creative with our ways to do it.



I'm young, post-college with int'l business degree, very well traveled and have experienced a lot. I have lived overseas. I don't have much experience with city development but IMO I have a strong understanding of the world and what it takes to think big. I am in a large advertising firm in Chicago, and work for BIG clients across the nation to do BIG things. We know how to think big, because we work with people that all think alike, and compete with the best and creative minds from across the WORLD. So yes, i think I have some clout to think as I do. I can tell you this much, most people in st. louis that i've encountered don't think big, and if other people do, they say...you're just some young dreamer who doesn't understand how the world works. And my dear friend, that's Bull sh*t.



So I ask you, how old are you? You have a law degree? You "know" how the system works, as other mighty knowledgable st. louisans and city leaders? Then tell me why the does St. Louis have a population less than OMAHA, Nebraska? Why is that everyone I meet outside of the midwest has no idea where st. louis is?



I believe if you're so concerned with details and little nuances that impede growth that cause you to give up, or do the mediocre, you'll never find a way to make st. louis grow.



St. Louis needs young "dreamers" and thinkers...just as advertising does and the business world. The more people shut them down, the more they'll move away to other cities where things get done.



But, then again, young people don't know anything, right, just like Zuckerberg and facebook, or the youtube guys, etc. They don't know cause they don't have experience, right? They're smarter because they have vision and had to fight with people like you who are "detail-oriented" who say it's impossible to do.
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PostNov 07, 2007#52

phoaddict wrote:...That's the problem and difference with other cities, because they think BIG...and we don't, and with a mediocre attitude, we will always be mediocre. And always in fourth place....



We have to stop the mediocrity as a city. But...i'm beginning to think it's impossible if people on this forum can't even think big....no, they're "practical"... as are the people in des moines.


I draw the line at saying St. Louisans are mediocre and can't think big. It's egocentric to think that everyone's goals should be the same as ones own -- and if they aren't then those people are worthy of contempt.



A lot of your ideas sound good -- but who's going to make them happen? That's where the pragmatism comes in. Everyone can't help. Most people are busy enough with their own lives.
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PostNov 07, 2007#53

It's a crying shame there aren't more people with the fervor of phoaddict in St. Louis. I'm dumbfounded at some of the negative responses in an...uh..."urban" forum yet, that wreak of anti-urbanism sentiment and downright pessimism.

People, open your eyes at look at the cities that have passed us by...the proof's in the puddin'. Please quit ignoring it.
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PostNov 07, 2007#54

Tysalpha wrote:
phoaddict wrote:...That's the problem and difference with other cities, because they think BIG...and we don't, and with a mediocre attitude, we will always be mediocre. And always in fourth place....



We have to stop the mediocrity as a city. But...i'm beginning to think it's impossible if people on this forum can't even think big....no, they're "practical"... as are the people in des moines.


I draw the line at saying St. Louisans are mediocre and can't think big. It's egocentric to think that everyone's goals should be the same as ones own -- and if they aren't then those people are worthy of contempt.



A lot of your ideas sound good -- but who's going to make them happen? That's where the pragmatism comes in. Everyone can't help. Most people are busy enough with their own lives.


You're right about being egocentric. It's wrong to stereotype all st. louisans as mediocre and "can't think big", that's mostly my emotions when I type and my trying to speed type while I work at the same time. I apologize for that. But i do feel that, comparing the people i've met in st. louis to the people ive met around the world. its just my experiences...



However, I do think that st. louis needs to decide what it wants to be. Just from my upbringing and experiences, I think the majority of st. louis deep inside wants to be what it was in 1904, on the world's spotlight. What I have said implies that people think that way, and offer suggestions how to be back on that scale.



Well, who will make it happen? What I hope for now is that people of importance or the eyes of people that can make a difference through their position will read this thread and ideas will stir in their minds. It won't happen if it's not talked about. Maybe in 5 years I'll get to personally taking steps...

PostNov 07, 2007#55

Marmar wrote:It's a crying shame there aren't more people with the fervor of phoaddict in St. Louis. I'm dumbfounded at some of the negative responses in an...uh..."urban" forum yet, that wreak of anti-urbanism sentiment and downright pessimism.

People, open your eyes at look at the cities that have passed us by...the proof's in the puddin'. Please quit ignoring it.


You just made my day, and gave me a shock of hope for st. louis
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PostNov 07, 2007#56

phoaddict wrote:You're right about being egocentric. It's wrong to stereotype all st. louisans as mediocre and "can't think big", that's mostly my emotions when I type and my trying to speed type while I work at the same time. I apologize for that. But i do feel that, comparing the people i've met in st. louis to the people ive met around the world. its just my experiences...



However, I do think that st. louis needs to decide what it wants to be. Just from my upbringing and experiences, I think the majority of st. louis deep inside wants to be what it was in 1904, on the world's spotlight. What I have said implies that people think that way, and offer suggestions how to be back on that scale.



Well, who will make it happen? What I hope for now is that people of importance or the eyes of people that can make a difference through their position will read this thread and ideas will stir in their minds. It won't happen if it's not talked about. Maybe in 5 years I'll get to personally taking steps...


Fair enough, pho, we all have our moments. :)



You're right that there is some soul-searching going on in St. Louis: We're pretty content, but could we be more? How much should we ground in history, and how much should we push forward? These aren't just questions about income and population, they are also questions of identity.



We have been blessed recently with a few people of importance who have had vision (Breckenridge, Danforth, etc.). We just need a few more.
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PostNov 07, 2007#57

Doug wrote:Ethnic neighborhoods don't develop through marketing. Moreover, we had a Chinatown but demolished it for Busch I. And we did this because whites were "too afraid" to continue to use Sportsman Park at Grand and Dodier. Perhaps things wouldn't have gotten so bad if whites remained instead of running away like scared children.


Um, er, perhaps Sportsman's Park had gotten too old, and perhaps one of the main arguments put forward for financing the new stadium that opened in 1966 was that it would be a centerpiece for "revitalizing" downtown -- not to mention that it was much more accessible to the growing metropolitan area than a park that was tucked in at the intersection of a boulevard and a two-lane street, well away from any major highways. Perhaps.



Or we could simply blame it all on scaredy-whiteys. Your call.
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PostNov 07, 2007#58

phoaddict wrote:
carrieocity kills wrote:
phoaddict wrote:

There are SOOO many times we've been out in st. louis like cwe or the loop, and were having a BLAST where we were, but then had to leave to find another bar. It ruins the momentum. Just all being 3am would be amazing. Then if we feel like going more...we go to IL.



I'm not sure if our ground can support tall buildings. LA doesn't have tall buildings???


i dont think LA has tall buildings- at least not 65 floors like the federal courthouse in lower manhattan.



and i like hopping from a 1:30 to a 3am bar- but then i like to do it up when i go out, and not stay in one spot for more than a couple drinks. there are SO MANY great bars and clubs in the STL, why limit yourself to just one?


You can do it up if you stay at a really fun place...And it's soo much fun to drunk drive across the way to nick's pub or atomic cowboy or any other 3 am place in a neighborhood far way. Not to mention the plethora of taxi cabs that go around our city....


big silly, just program laclede's number into your celly or drink a glass of water in between your drinks. i personally like scotch and water b/c its too strong for me to drink too fast and i dont get wasted. plus, i hate driving sober, let alone after drinking- would always prefer to take a cab or get a ride.

PostNov 07, 2007#59

Notes from Home wrote:
carrieocity kills wrote:and i like hopping from a 1:30 to a 3am bar- but then i like to do it up when i go out, and not stay in one spot for more than a couple drinks. there are SO MANY great bars and clubs in the STL, why limit yourself to just one?


Carrie, I seriously think I need to buy you a drink next time I'm in STL. :wink:


will you be in town Thanksgiving weekend? We will be having our rollerderby championship bout that weekend:) GO SMASHINISTAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PostNov 07, 2007#60

Pho - few things


Sorry I should've been more specific, i didn't realize someone was going to critique every word i said.


Clearly, you haven't been on this board long enough, or haven't run into Central Scrutinizer or Arch City! :P



And I'm dissapointed you haven't responded to my other points, that said:


phoaddict wrote:
Come ON people. Stl will never be world class when people are just "content"...they WANT change deep inside...but I think they're afraid of it...or just don't know how to do it. And when someone comes out with answers, they argue against it like they don't want to hear it....


Let me ask you a question - did you stop to think once, just once, that a lot of people like it in St. Louis, and don't want it to "become a world class city?" I of course want things to be better than they are. I'd love to see better public transport, improved architectural design, decreased crime, Stepford Wives...I mean...fewer homeless, etc.



But "world class"? (and of course, there are variations in that as well) What are we talking about - NY, Chicago, Paris, London? Or second tier Vancouver, Toronto, Melbourne, Boston, Seattle? With the associated insane housing prices/outrageous rents, increased social stratification, traffic/congestion/air pollution? Have you ever looked at the flipside of the coin you are so desperatly trying to foist on the people here?



Your argument sounds a lot like all those people who say "look at how great (insert foreign country) is, we should be more like them." Only...one problem - our forefathers and mothers left those foreign countries because they weren't so great. They had severe employment or social problems that people to this day continue to ignore. I'm not saying NY et. al aren't good cities, but they clearly aren't what St. Louisans want - if it was, people would



A - have changed STL by now or

B - moved (which many have - not always a negative. St. Louis can't be everything to everyone)



I don't see any major negatives out of being a moderate sized city, with reasonable housing prices, good schools available, a solid cultural/entertainment offer, and reasonable job availability (but we could use a better local brewer...c'mon New Belgium!). It's ok to be content with this. We're not evil Mr. Florida, so please don't treat people as such.
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PostNov 07, 2007#61

migueltejada wrote:Pho - few things


Sorry I should've been more specific, i didn't realize someone was going to critique every word i said.


Clearly, you haven't been on this board long enough, or haven't run into Central Scrutinizer or Arch City! :P



And I'm dissapointed you haven't responded to my other points, that said:


phoaddict wrote:
Come ON people. Stl will never be world class when people are just "content"...they WANT change deep inside...but I think they're afraid of it...or just don't know how to do it. And when someone comes out with answers, they argue against it like they don't want to hear it....


Let me ask you a question - did you stop to think once, just once, that a lot of people like it in St. Louis, and don't want it to "become a world class city?" I of course want things to be better than they are. I'd love to see better public transport, improved architectural design, decreased crime, Stepford Wives...I mean...fewer homeless, etc.



But "world class"? (and of course, there are variations in that as well) What are we talking about - NY, Chicago, Paris, London? Or second tier Vancouver, Toronto, Melbourne, Boston, Seattle? With the associated insane housing prices/outrageous rents, increased social stratification, traffic/congestion/air pollution? Have you ever looked at the flipside of the coin you are so desperatly trying to foist on the people here?



Your argument sounds a lot like all those people who say "look at how great (insert foreign country) is, we should be more like them." Only...one problem - our forefathers and mothers left those foreign countries because they weren't so great. They had severe employment or social problems that people to this day continue to ignore. I'm not saying NY et. al aren't good cities, but they clearly aren't what St. Louisans want - if it was, people would



A - have changed STL by now or

B - moved (which many have - not always a negative. St. Louis can't be everything to everyone)



I don't see any major negatives out of being a moderate sized city, with reasonable housing prices, good schools available, a solid cultural/entertainment offer, and reasonable job availability (but we could use a better local brewer...c'mon New Belgium!). It's ok to be content with this. We're not evil Mr. Florida, so please don't treat people as such.


Some of the responses to your responses have already been made on this thread.



Wow, :( :( boy do I feel sad now. I didn't realize I would get so much negative feedback for this thread. I guess I truly am a minority in the way I think. I was always under the presumption that people DID want our city to be on a world class scale...I just thought we weren't smart enough to get that far. We once were, everyone talks about how great we once were, and say, oh well. Wish we could now but can't....



I guess I'm completely wrong. Well, good luck st. louis. Have fun. Maybe I should just stay in chicago then. No wonder why so many people leave...



About your comment on "forefathers", how can you compare foreign countries to what they were like in 1700s??? And you're in Melbourne??? Are you joking around? I'm a first generation American, so yes, I know the good things this country has and understand the difference between life here and in third world countries or less fortunate countries. But you can't be serious...



The lighting is bad? I've never noticed.

- Come here to here and drive on the highways in chicago. Next, drive in st. louis on 270, 44, 40, 70, 170. Then, respond to this.



Great idea. Now come up with $4 billion for the studies, design, and build aspects, add another 10 years onto your projection, and you're all set.

The whole point of what I was saying was packaging several ideas to pursue. One being expanding our metrolink, which is already in progress...



Hispania!? Sounds like a mental illness. I've personally never liked designating a place as "ethnic town" because it just sends the wrong message to the people living there, like "this is where you live only". I mean, should we designate Chesterfield as "Hummerville", or Ladue as "Cracker Town", or Afton as "Little Mayonaise?" Leave the place names as they are.

Cherokee street. Or whatever you want to call it, geez! I've answered this in a previous post.



Ugh...don't we already have one (the fireman statue, Milles Fountain, Serra)? It's more of a redesign of the exisiting park space. But it's going ahead anyways, so that's fine.

This is already going to happen, in stltoday two weeks ago or so.



As if this isn't a priority of SLPD officers now? And private police officers!? Nothing says "John Wayne syndrome with a GED" more than a rent-a-cop. Sign me up to be around them when the sh*t hits the fan.

Again, how the hell do I know how to fix the crime problem, its just an idea. Don't get over critical. Do you know how to fix the crime problem? If so, then do it. If not, don't criticize me for thinking of how to do so. I'm just trying to start conversation here to get people talking, not to critiize some over the top idea. The answer is, what we're doing now DOESNT Fing WORK. Duh. What are we going to do, do what rio does and designated neighborhoods into favelas? I mean geez. If you're so anti- my thoughts, why don't you offer better ideas or suggestions.



What - he never said what the building had to be used for

You obviously didn't get my point then. It's not about the actual building, its the effect of such a building.



Why are you so bitter?
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PostNov 08, 2007#62

phoaddict wrote:I guess I'm completely wrong. Well, good luck st. louis. Have fun. Maybe I should just stay in chicago then. No wonder why so many people leave...
Are you serious?
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PostNov 08, 2007#63

Well, I hope you don't stay in Chicago. I think we can all agree that St. Louis needs more people like you, and like most of the people on this forum: people who feel passionately about the city and want to make it better (even if we don't necessarily agree on every detail about what will make it better). And I think there are a lot of us, but unfortunately it's easy to get discouraged and feel powerless when you feel like you don't have the money/power/influence to get things accomplished. That's when the cities that already seem to have it together, that are less a work-in-progress, seem really appealing. But let's not give up on our dear, flawed old St. Louis! We all know she's got the potential for greatness...
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PostNov 08, 2007#64

everyone talks about how great we once were


True, but to be honest this is a highly romanticized, largely false memory. It's easy in 2007 to think of 1957 as a great time for the city of St. Louis, but we do not have the problems of 1957 staring us in the face - insolvent streetcar system, urban housing without plumbing . . . the urban utopia may have existed, if at all, in about 1923.
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PostNov 08, 2007#65

Pho -



It's amazing what a little devils' advocacy can do. Ideas, no matter how great, will be analyzed and criticized. My god, I'm just one person having a little fun on a message board - if this is how you react to criticism in the real world, you'd best reconsider your career choice.


Why are you so bitter?


Because I've seen the beast. I worked for EW Gateway, seen the people running the show and who they represent. We are what we are, change comes slowly, gradually, and begrudgingly - and with heaps of compromise all around. This results in a watered down and diluted final product that is offensive to none and is mediocre to all. After all - isn't that our region's motto - strive for mediocrity?



I also spoke with the SLDC and tried to get a job or at least an intership with them. After 6 MONTHS of pestering, I finally got a phone call from a headhunting agency asking me to be a project leader (this coming after I had a grand total of 0.000 years of exp in planning). I asked them if they had actually read my resume. They said no. If the City is eager to interview horribly underqualified candidates to be PROJECT MANAGERS, I can only imagine how inept the actual hires are. Bitter? More like jaded.



Now, of course I got your point about the tall building - I was being sarcastic. Weapon of the weak mind maybe, but it works for me 8)



Now, you asked for me to give you my ideas - boy I have loads of em. However, I'm still at work and need to get back to it. I'll post my ideas in another thread soon enough.
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PostNov 08, 2007#66

innov8ion wrote:
phoaddict wrote:I guess I'm completely wrong. Well, good luck st. louis. Have fun. Maybe I should just stay in chicago then. No wonder why so many people leave...
Are you serious?


No, i was just exaggerating as a result of some the responses I've gotten, just to show a typical person's reactions regarding coming back to st. louis or not. People who care about the city just give up, and I can get a glimpse of why.



I'm quite shocked actually at the negative feedback...

PostNov 08, 2007#67

Because I've seen the beast. I worked for EW Gateway, seen the people running the show and who they represent. We are what we are, change comes slowly, gradually, and begrudgingly - and with heaps of compromise all around. This results in a watered down and diluted final product that is offensive to none and is mediocre to all. After all - isn't that our region's motto - strive for mediocrity?



Wow, you nailed it. That's exactly what my thoughts were on how things were run. It's so sad. We have the same problem in advertising with phenomenal ideas that get diluted to offensive to none. It's so sad when you can see what things could be, and what they actually end up being.



I have this love hate thing with st. louis. Like part of me wants to go back and fight for it. Then another part says, why waste me time... I can imagine what you mean by "beast". I would probably be fired in a day for being too radical and pulling all my hair out, then being sentenced to anger management...
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PostNov 08, 2007#68

Shocked? As for myself, that's putting it lightly.

Has St. Louis become so insulated from the rest of the world that supposed urbanites offer such protest? Apprently so. Some are so ingrained with the mediocrity, blandness and low expectations of the past it seems to have become their banner...talk about NIMBYs, Naysayers and outright crashing bores! Perhaps for these people the new St. Louis slogan should be "Stop the world, I want to get off".

Great cities are built from dreams. Some people JUST DON'T GET IT.
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PostNov 08, 2007#69

carrieocity kills wrote:
Notes from Home wrote:
carrieocity kills wrote:and i like hopping from a 1:30 to a 3am bar- but then i like to do it up when i go out, and not stay in one spot for more than a couple drinks. there are SO MANY great bars and clubs in the STL, why limit yourself to just one?


Carrie, I seriously think I need to buy you a drink next time I'm in STL. :wink:


will you be in town Thanksgiving weekend? We will be having our rollerderby championship bout that weekend:) GO SMASHINISTAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'll be in town most of the week before & after Thanksgiving. When's the bout? Maybe I'll buy you that drink if you win. :wink:
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PostNov 08, 2007#70

Doug wrote:And we did this because whites were "too afraid" to continue to use Sportsman Park at Grand and Dodier. Perhaps things wouldn't have gotten so bad if whites remained instead of running away like scared children.


Geez, I know, it's like "white people get a clue! Put up with assault and robbery because if you leave, then crime will just get worse!" They are SO selfish! They cared more about the safety of their families than the building stock back then, how weird?
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PostNov 08, 2007#71

Google Earth St Louis City and work outward for about 10 minutes. It will quickly become apparent why the vote for horizontal development is the preference. Beyond that there are plenty of buildings that can still be rehabbed (must still be a few left DT too right?) for many uses. We (They LOL) just got going on 5 or more major DT altering projects. STL has more Historic Tax Credit projects going than most. We could use a bump in the Green Area, although there are some. Hopefully McKee is planning to save his good name in that area (no evidence except ability) on the Northside. Something is going to happen up there beyond Old North. All this in this housing market. Anti development... no. Realistic. Hopefully. What I think you are finding is a crowd who was once of the same mindset, that a few major things could change everything, but have found a plethera of small, and a few other items beyond the buildings that must be addressed as well. (cough... cough... political/racial tension... see PubDef... zoning... see Urban Review... Preservation... see Ecology of Absence) and a few other things. Give us those 5 years you're talkin and we'll be waiting for your dream. But if you're gonna think big, think bigger than now. Maybe a bridge with sistering towers, all historic looking on one end and modern on the other, complete with bike stations, veiwing stations, a bar, restaraunt, alternative fuel station, and hydro generators below that power the whole city. Dang, put that together and we might be ready now. We have dreamers, just in different stages of the dream. Perception is a funny thing. I optimistically :wink: appreciate the discussion.
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PostNov 08, 2007#72

phoaddict wrote:I have this love hate thing with st. louis. Like part of me wants to go back and fight for it. Then another part says, why waste me time...


We need you here to fight for it, and it is worth fighting for. We need as many people as possible working for the betterment of this city.
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PostNov 08, 2007#73

I just want to say that I f##king love this city more every day. Despite our problems, I sincerely think St. Louis can stand up with the greatest cities in the country (excluding the obvious megacities). The mere existence of this forum gives me hope that St. Louis will only get better with age.
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PostNov 08, 2007#74

Marmar wrote:Shocked? As for myself, that's putting it lightly.

Has St. Louis become so insulated from the rest of the world that supposed urbanites offer such protest? Apprently so. Some are so ingrained with the mediocrity, blandness and low expectations of the past it seems to have become their banner...talk about NIMBYs, Naysayers and outright crashing bores! Perhaps for these people the new St. Louis slogan should be "Stop the world, I want to get off".

Great cities are built from dreams. Some people JUST DON'T GET IT.


WOW. It's great to be on the same page with someone!!! Amen brotha!

PostNov 08, 2007#75

Ok this is might be completely absurd to some. But I was messing with photoshop and pics from Xing, let me know Xing if you want me to take it down. It's a classic view of the city from 255, one of my favorites. What would a few taller buildings do to the skyline, with one really tall one?



2020?







2050?







This would be my dream. To be driving home to my HOME CITY, and seeing this with pride.[/img]
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