urbanSTL

The Missouri Development Finance Board will consider Tuesday whether the planned $600 million Ballpark Village project in St. Louis should get up to $188 million in taxpayer subsidies.





http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... rround=lfn

I really don't like the idea of giving Cordish and Dimwitt additional money when the village was part of why we originally subsidized the stadium. This falls in line with TIF abuse in my opinion. Why is America so obsessed with socializing costs while privatizing profits. I would have no problem subsidizing the Stadiums, Villages, Malls or whatever if the profits went directly into public coffers.

If you're going to give out $118 million is subsidies, give to a developer who will actually use it, not stall and waste it again.

Moorlander wrote:The Missouri Development Finance Board will consider Tuesday whether the planned $600 million Ballpark Village project in St. Louis should get up to $188 million in taxpayer subsidies.





http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... rround=lfn

It'll be interesting to see if State Senator Jason Crowell gets his way, or if hell actually freezes over per his threat to kill these incentives.



I really couldn't care less about this project anymore. Even if it gets built, it's probably going to be an insipid cookie-cutter barmall that risks taking business away from nearby establishments that actually invested in downtown without a shitload of incentives (not counting the historic preservation tax credits that would've happened with or without the retail establishments within those buildings) and without jacking the citizens of St. Louis around for the better part of a decade. Let 'em play softball- I'm more concerned with bringing St. Louis Centre back to life and getting rid of that blasted skybridge over Washington Avenue.

I still think this project is a must This is still the best opportunity to build Class A office space as well as keeping Stifel downtown in the immediate future. I have no doubt that state politics is playing into this and the Missouri Finance Board is going to find a way to avoid this project until the budget is settled in Jefferson City. Gone Corporate, do you have a different take.



http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kwmu/ ... ID=1496534



John Fougere with the Missouri Department of Economic Development says no decisions have been made yet on awarding tax incentives.



"This is a very complex project...we have new members on the (Mo. Development) Finance Board, we're going to make sure they have all the information that they need to have to be up to speed on all projects under consideration, but certainly one as significant as Ballpark Village," Fougere said.



A vote on tax incentives could come at next month's meeting, but that may be delayed until later.

Mayor Slay correctly avoided this trap that may force KC to cut police force.



http://www.pitch.com/2009-04-23/news/ka ... onsulting/

sirshankalot wrote:Mayor Slay correctly avoided this trap that may force KC to cut police force.



http://www.pitch.com/2009-04-23/news/ka ... onsulting/

Well-written article - Brutal, but well-written. After looking at the numbers I am amazed that the incentive-payback figures were ever approved. It looks like they're operating at 1/6 of the tax revenue promised. Even in a great retail economy KC could not assume that the district would sustain the 2/3 needed to pay back the bonds over 23 years. How did this happen? From a PR-perspective, I can't imagine this is good news for the Cordish folks in what they're trying to get approved in Jeff City. The financial structure of the two developments are different in that STL isn't backing the notes, but the integrity of the developers seem to be at stake.

Grover wrote:^ This is what happens when you base $100M+ decisions on market studies and surveys that contain dozen of assumptions about past markets, the validity of data and future growth AND why incremental, diverse growth is much more stable.

Union Station

St. Louis Centre

Union Market

The Gateway Mall

Renaissance Hotel

TWA Dome

Kiel/Savvis/Scottrade

Ballpark Village



Yes, we have an incredible track record for supporting "incremental, diverse growth" over silver bullet megaprojects, don't we?

Paul Brown

Bee Hat

Merchant's Laclede

Merchandise Mart

Syndicate-Trust

Coronado Hotel

Moolah Temple

Cupples Warehouses

City Hospital

Continental

Tudor Bldg

100s, if not 1000s, of independently renovated homes and small commercial buildings throughout the City.



And how much have I left out?

^^ Isn't it a bit disingenuous to characterize these projects as "silver bullets?" In any case, I hear there are some Monday Night QB positions open.

Gone Corporate wrote:The credibility of the City of Saint Louis (especially Downtown) and the State of Missouri regarding doing constructive business with us, and all that it means now and in the future, is tied into the passage of this legislation. This includes the metro area's abilities to retain and attract new business to Downtown. Further, if it doesn't pass, we will be stuck with a crater, which will serve as a "Do Not Enter" sign to every developer and business of worth regarding the City and what it means to do business with MO.



If this doesn't get built, it will be the biggest failure in StL's history.

It'd be right up there with scaring away Josephine Baker and SBC.

Personally I think you're overreacting. I bet 99.99% of people/businesses that don't live in STL have no idea that a Ballpark Village has been proposed, or care if it has for that matter. If this were to go on for another 5 years and finally collapse, leading to incremental development on the site I still bet 99.99% would not know that it went undeveloped for a decade.



I'm much happier that STL city held firm and didn't pull off what KC did. KC's failing will be much more detrimental to future city development going forward than if Ballpark Village never breaks ground here in STL. I'd instead point to it as a failure of Cardinals owners and Cordish to get it going.

^^

Calculate the total value of the projects you've cited. It's possible more money was spent on the Jones Dome alone, but in any event, the total amount spent on megaprojects (all of which are arguably unsuccessful) dwarfs the others by a factor of 10 or more.



^

Of course they were "silver bullets." The Dome was going to spur mass amounts of adjacent ancillary development. (Not to mention: It's not a "sports facility," it's an "integral part of the convention center.") We absolutely had to have the Renaissance to achieve critical mass in conventional hotel space. (Historical footnote: We tore down a less-than-20-year-old 300-room hotel to build the Dome.)



St. Louis Centre was going to revitalize the two anchor department stores and re-establish downtown as a retail destination. (So was Union Market. So was Union Station.)



And of course the Gateway Mall was going to be a business, hospitality and entertainment Mecca that would produce much higher occupancy than those ugly old, 90-percent-occupied buildings that it replaced. Worked out well, didn't it?

OK, fair enough.



Dwell on the negatives if you must, but I think we've made legitimate progress.



And the Kiel thing finally worked out. . . .even if it took over a decade.

^^ Ok, so where would we be without the Dome and the Renaissance? We'd be left without an NFL team and convention strength that help feed the downtown economy. I suppose this is a preferable alternative, right?

^^ I don't deny progress. Your examples are all valid. I do suggest there's a certain segment of this board (and I'm not including you) whose attitude is "I'm not here to talk about the past." Said attitude has been prevalent in St. Louis for at least 40 years and has allowed a succession of P.T. Barnums and urban vandals to keep repeating the same mistakes.



By the way, Kielvis opened in 1994. With, as we all remember, a contract from Kiel Center Partners aka Civic Progress to reopen the Opera House as part of the condition for all the subsidies they received.



^We are currently without the convention strength to feed the downtown economy. We wanted to be Chicago or even New Orleans when we should have recognized that we're Pittsburgh or Cincinnati. (And we're caught by the short ones by the biggest welfare queens of all, the NFL.)

>>>BACK to Ballpark Village

With all due respect, that entire discussion *was* about Ballpark Village.

I say put a little artificial lake there and see if Albert can hit balls into it.

^We had that and everyone complained about it. Granted, any home run into that lake would have been incredible, but still.

throatybeard wrote:I say put a little artificial lake there and see if Albert can hit balls into it.

That has now been relocated to the NE corner of Pine & Euclid. It would have to be a pretty long shot, but with a decent wind....

ricke002 wrote:

throatybeard wrote:I say put a little artificial lake there and see if Albert can hit balls into it.

That has now been relocated to the NE corner of Pine & Euclid. It would have to be a pretty long shot, but with a decent wind....

That would be one heck of a foul ball. Might as well swing for the fountain in Kiener Plaza.