urbanSTL

Here's Mayor Slay's thoughts on the crime list...



http://www.mayorslay.com/desk/display.asp?deskID=566

there is already a thread on the city crime rankings...this is OT

Ihnen wrote:

The retail and entertainment will draw City and County residents to the area, thus harming local business, some of which pay City taxes.

So drawing people to downtown is now a negative? That's really stretching for something pessimistic to say. Of course there will be competition, of course some of the dollars spent at BPV would have been spent elsewhere. The next step is to argue against any new business opening anywhere (especially in the city), oh, and new residential should be halted - not to mention office space - unless it can be proved that no business, home or building manager will be adversely affected! (that's sarcastic)

That is not what I am arguing Ihnen.



I am saying that BPV will put taxpaying businesses at a competitive disadvantage. BPV is going to put huge strain on other business in the area. All of the PR hype is going to attract people to BPV, which will decrease City revenue by attracting people from other locales. The businesses which pay revenue will suffer as a result of BPV.



Competition is good yet the City is taking a big role in promoting BPV. By promoting BPV other business could suffer. What about the Flamingo Bowling alley? Don’t you think that the County people would go to the BPV over Joe's new place? Wouldn't you rather see a proven visionary like Edwards receive consideration?



I am not anti-development. I am about looking at the entire affect of these “big projects” as their failure, or success, can change the landscape of the City drastically. During the “hardball negotiation,” I wonder if such analysis was conducted. Probably not since the status quo was followed.

I guess that was a bit of a generalization, but its still true that more tax-paying residents of St. Louis will have a positive affect. The more tax-payers St. Louis gets the more funding for police and education--two things related to lowering crime rates. I was really adressing the affect this list would have on the Ballpark Village since thats what this thread is about. But you cant deny that taxes from higher income areas benefit lower income areas. Or do you believe that the rich are the only ones who benefit from the taxes they pay?

Ihnen wrote:

The retail and entertainment will draw City and County residents to the area, thus harming local business, some of which pay City taxes.

So drawing people to downtown is now a negative? That's really stretching for something pessimistic to say. Of course there will be competition, of course some of the dollars spent at BPV would have been spent elsewhere. The next step is to argue against any new business opening anywhere (especially in the city), oh, and new residential should be halted - not to mention office space - unless it can be proved that no business, home or building manager will be adversely affected! (that's sarcastic)

Or we can jump totally off the deep end and not examine what it is I'm trying to point out.



First of all, bpe235, there's lots of office workers in the city, but they're not the ones that'll be going to these restaurants. Most office workers bring their lunch because it's too expensive to buy every day. You might get 25% of everyone in every particlar office buying lunch on any given day. Additionally, the BPV isn't that close to the majority of office workers in downtown! Most office jobs are located at SWB, the US bank building, and AG Edwards, which is nowhere close to the BPV. Yes, there's the equity building, 1 memorial drive, and the UMB bank buildings, but those combined don't have the office population that is really necessary to keep something like this open in the winter.



Again, baseball is played only 81 DAYS A YEAR. That's NOT ENOUGH to keep something like this viable over the long term, not without a large residential component. The retail on washington is opening because each strret level retail has 30-60 people living DIRECTLY ABOVE THE STORE. Not to mention the nearby convention traffic and hotels.



Now, ihnen, I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be built, I'm saying that it should include a large residetial component to ensure its viability. Look, Wrigleyville in chicago works because there's about 100,000 people that live within a 5 min walk, drive, or el ride. Yawkey Way in boston has the same thing. The BPV won't have access to that kind of density when completed, not unless they build it into the project. I want this project to survive and thrive, but I don't see it happening unless Cordish builds some 1,000 units into the project.

Now, ihnen, I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be built, I'm saying that it should include a large residetial component to ensure its viability. Look, Wrigleyville in chicago works because there's about 100,000 people that live within a 5 min walk, drive, or el ride. Yawkey Way in boston has the same thing. The BPV won't have access to that kind of density when completed, not unless they build it into the project. I want this project to survive and thrive, but I don't see it happening unless Cordish builds some 1,000 units into the project.

Agreed! This project will be a disappointment if less than the 1,200 proposed units are eventually built. Although there will never be 100,000 within 5 mins of the stadium, there could be 20,000 . . . let's hope!

migueltejada wrote:
First of all, bpe235, there's lots of office workers in the city, but they're not the ones that'll be going to these restaurants. Most office workers bring their lunch because it's too expensive to buy every day. You might get 25% of everyone in every particlar office buying lunch on any given day. Additionally, the BPV isn't that close to the majority of office workers in downtown! Most office jobs are located at SWB, the US bank building, and AG Edwards, which is nowhere close to the BPV. Yes, there's the equity building, 1 memorial drive, and the UMB bank buildings, but those combined don't have the office population that is really necessary to keep something like this open in the winter.

I think you are very wrong. Most downtown restaurants thrive on the office lunch crowd. Not just downtown either. Go to a restaurant in Soulard for lunch... which is much farther from the CBD than BPV and it is packed with office workers.



Not only that, but I think most office workers do NOT bring their lunch everyday. I'm sure some do all the time, but I'd hardly say most do.



And while BPV may be too far of a walk for those at AG Edwards, I'm sure they'd drive the short distance to go to a restaurant/bar for lunch or happy hour if it was a place they enjoy - just like they do now for many places.

buckethead wrote:

migueltejada wrote:
First of all, bpe235, there's lots of office workers in the city, but they're not the ones that'll be going to these restaurants. Most office workers bring their lunch because it's too expensive to buy every day. You might get 25% of everyone in every particlar office buying lunch on any given day. Additionally, the BPV isn't that close to the majority of office workers in downtown! Most office jobs are located at SWB, the US bank building, and AG Edwards, which is nowhere close to the BPV. Yes, there's the equity building, 1 memorial drive, and the UMB bank buildings, but those combined don't have the office population that is really necessary to keep something like this open in the winter.

I think you are very wrong. Most downtown restaurants thrive on the office lunch crowd. Not just downtown either. Go to a restaurant in Soulard for lunch... which is much farther from the CBD than BPV and it is packed with office workers.



Not only that, but I think most office workers do NOT bring their lunch everyday. I'm sure some do all the time, but I'd hardly say most do.



And while BPV may be too far of a walk for those at AG Edwards, I'm sure they'd drive the short distance to go to a restaurant/bar for lunch or happy hour if it was a place they enjoy - just like they do now for many places.

Thank you buckethead...my point exactly though I see both sides of the arguement, Even if most people bring their lunch, their is still a 30k-50k lunch crowd not to mention, things are starting to changeDT, and on top of whats said above, I think more and more people will opt to hanging around after work.

Also, aren't there some 1500 more residential units to be completed DT in the upcoming years. Those people will need places to eat, drink, etc

If you drive through downtown between 11-1 on a weekday, you will see the restaraunts very busy! So i do not agree with the notion that most office workers do not frequent the downtown restaraunts. Also saying that BPV is not close to the workers is ridiculous, we are talking 4- 5 blocks including the gateway mall. This is not a huge walk, and when I am downtown during lunch there are people walking everywhere. So will they be the major force for the workday lunch, maybe maybe not, we will just have to see... I think the plans are awesome and as a future downtown resident, I can't wait.

to encourage people in the densest part of the MSA to use it more often... if they become acustomed they might use it other times... like to commute... or simply to encourage people to eating out....

It is also very much within walking distance from the convention center.

I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped by someone from out of town that is here for a convention that has asked where they can go for lunch.

The Pointe 400 and the Cupples Station and the BallPark Lofts will all be within spitting distance as well.

Not to mention that much of Washington Avenue and several other loft/condo buildings will be within 1/2 mile of BPV. Now, I know that the St. Louis 1/2 mile is longer than the Chicago or NYC 1/2 mile (judging by how willing people are to walk it), but our CBD is condensed enough that nearly everyone downtown should be within walking distance.

This thing will not fail. The only way it fails is if the developer builds something crappy.

Looking at the map below it does appear that the majority of lofts are far enough that people may not walk . However, Pointe 600, Cupples, etc. are not on the map . . .







http://www.stlouislofts.com/downtownloftmap.html

Like Bastiat alluded to, I'm sure that Cordish realizes that they're going to have to build an environment that will be viable 365 days out of the year. Hopefully, they'll schedule plenty of special events and things of that nature to keep people coming back, even when there isn't a Cards game taking place.

Not only that, but how many business can start out KNOWING they will be packed 81 days out of the year???



Yeah, it would be nice to have good business the other 284 days, but almost having a guarantee that you will be extremely profitable over 20% of the time makes it pretty hard to fail.

^ This is a good point - weekday games are especially important. Many restaurants have very little traffic except for Friday/Saturday. So a very good restaurant may have good business 104 days a year - knowing that some weekdays will be busy is a big bonus.

In addition, this will help STL draw more conventions because now they have a "safe place" to be entertained. By safe I mean somewhere that feels familiar (via ESPN zone, etc) and something they don't have to put much effort into like trying to find the hottest club or bar on Wash Ave or other areas of downtown.



Just the fact that this thing is associated with the World Series Champion St.Louis Cardinals is going to make it an amazing success.

Schlafly Tap room is a good place for HH

Sheesh, relax people! Cordish knows what they're doing. They've got a heck of a lot more experience doing this kind of thing than anyone on this forum does!