It depends on where your benchmarks are - Busch III broke ground in early 2004, and BPV broke ground in early 2013, which is a 9 year gap. But the very earliest that BPV Phase 1 could have broken ground is early 2006, since there was a stadium sitting there prior to that point. In any event, not a decade by any measurement, but certainly much longer than 5 years.urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020You forgot about the decade-long gap between gravel parking lot and the bar mall...DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020With the economic downturn we're facing, I wouldn't count on hearing about the next phase of BPV until probably 2022 or so. That, plus the fact that there has been about a five year gap between each phase of this project so far.gone corporate wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020^ Hell yeah. I can see that also advertising real estate next to Roger Dean Stadium in Jupiter, FL. Just re-dub them "retirement colonies"...
Love it or hate it, that screen has us all comparing BPV to dystopian cyberpunk pop culture. Never thought that'd happen. 100 hasn't done that. Don't really think that's the image DeWitt, Cordish, and the Cardinals really had in mind... Although I'm ready for BPV2 to be announced hopefully soon and now really am hoping it gives off a purplish neon glow when built. With makeshift noodle stores on the ground floor, next to the BBQ.
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"Your team was made as well as we could make it."
"But not to win."
. . .
"I want more hits!"
. . .
"It's too bad she won't win. But then again, who does?"
Okay, I need to stop now. I'm having dreams of remaking half of Blade Runner in downtown St. Louis. And while it's coo, I just don't have the budget for that. Or the skills. But dang, it makes for a great vision. And really, who doesn't love a good noodle shop?
"But not to win."
. . .
"I want more hits!"
. . .
"It's too bad she won't win. But then again, who does?"
Okay, I need to stop now. I'm having dreams of remaking half of Blade Runner in downtown St. Louis. And while it's coo, I just don't have the budget for that. Or the skills. But dang, it makes for a great vision. And really, who doesn't love a good noodle shop?
The 8 years felt like 10 because of all of the false starts, abandoned proposals and renderings unveiled with fanfare that were bound for the trash heap.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020It depends on where your benchmarks are - Busch III broke ground in early 2004, and BPV broke ground in early 2013, which is a 9 year gap. But the very earliest that BPV Phase 1 could have broken ground is early 2006, since there was a stadium sitting there prior to that point. In any event, not a decade by any measurement, but certainly much longer than 5 years.urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020You forgot about the decade-long gap between gravel parking lot and the bar mall...DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020With the economic downturn we're facing, I wouldn't count on hearing about the next phase of BPV until probably 2022 or so. That, plus the fact that there has been about a five year gap between each phase of this project so far.
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chance of baseball at Busch this year
0-10%
11-30%
31-50%
51-75%
76%+
0-10%
11-30%
31-50%
51-75%
76%+
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Gotta be one of thosedbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020chance of baseball at Busch this year
0-10%
11-30%
31-50%
51-75%
76%+
I'mma call it 7 years. The very earliest we could have possibly seen ground broken for Ballpark Village is spring of 2006, because that was when the site was first cleared. The "gravel parking lot" existed for 7 years, from early 2006 until early 2013.wabash wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020The 8 years felt like 10 because of all of the false starts, abandoned proposals and renderings unveiled with fanfare that were bound for the trash heap.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020It depends on where your benchmarks are - Busch III broke ground in early 2004, and BPV broke ground in early 2013, which is a 9 year gap. But the very earliest that BPV Phase 1 could have broken ground is early 2006, since there was a stadium sitting there prior to that point. In any event, not a decade by any measurement, but certainly much longer than 5 years.urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020You forgot about the decade-long gap between gravel parking lot and the bar mall...
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I’m remember when they were calling it Pujols pond 
. Tells you how far we’ve come along
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
. Tells you how far we’ve come along Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was counting years between phase openings, so 8 years (see below), plus they get 2 years extra credit for sitting on their thumbs for four years and failing to be ready to break ground in 2006 ( and that doesn't even address the Centene fiasco ).DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020It depends on where your benchmarks are - Busch III broke ground in early 2004, and BPV broke ground in early 2013, which is a 9 year gap. But the very earliest that BPV Phase 1 could have broken ground is early 2006, since there was a stadium sitting there prior to that point. In any event, not a decade by any measurement, but certainly much longer than 5 years.urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020You forgot about the decade-long gap between gravel parking lot and the bar mall...DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020With the economic downturn we're facing, I wouldn't count on hearing about the next phase of BPV until probably 2022 or so. That, plus the fact that there has been about a five year gap between each phase of this project so far.
The Phase One bar mall and sea of fresh asphalt opened in 2014. Phase Zero had a staggered opening in 2006 when they cleared away the last of Busch II rubble, put down the fresh layer of gravel, and Lake DeWitt opened for it's first mosquito breeding season.
Yeah, I definitely remember it being called Lake DeWitt, never heard it called Pujols Pond before. I think the Lake DeWitt nickname was probably intended to be a lot more derisive than Pujols Pond.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020^ I always remembered it as Lake Dewitt lol.
8 years is fair, but the 2 bonus years makes absolutely no sense, given that there was literally a stadium sitting on that site until December of 2005. On the one hand, you don't give the project any credit for existing until it was completed, on the other hand, you tack on two extra years for time in which it was literally not possible for construction to have occurred on the site.urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020I was counting years between phase openings, so 8 years (see below), plus they get 2 years extra credit for sitting on their thumbs for four years and failing to be ready to break ground in 2006 ( and that doesn't even address the Centene fiasco ).DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020It depends on where your benchmarks are - Busch III broke ground in early 2004, and BPV broke ground in early 2013, which is a 9 year gap. But the very earliest that BPV Phase 1 could have broken ground is early 2006, since there was a stadium sitting there prior to that point. In any event, not a decade by any measurement, but certainly much longer than 5 years.urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 08, 2020You forgot about the decade-long gap between gravel parking lot and the bar mall...
The unambiguous implication in that description is that on the site of Phase I of Ballpark Village, there was a vacant gravel parking lot that sat there untouched for a period of ten years. But that's simply not true. There wasn't an empty gravel parking lot there in December 2005, and there wasn't an empty gravel parking lot there in February 2013, either. Again, if you want to go by the time gap between phase completions, fine. There were 8 years between the opening of Busch III and the opening of BPV I. But the extra two years is just silly. Had BPV I opened in the fall of 2006, would you have complained about the property being a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years? Of course you wouldn't, because that would be ridiculous. Would you say that there has been a 7.5 year gap between Phase 1 and Phase 2 of BPV? After all, Phase 1 started construction in February 2013, and Phase 2 won't be completed until July 2020. Again, that would be ridiculous.the decade-long gap between gravel parking lot and the bar mall
As Urbanitas mentioned, the 2 years were extra credit for not being ready to break ground (and for . Which I totally agree with.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020Had BPV I opened in the fall of 2006, would you have complained about the property being a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years?urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020I was counting years between phase openings, so 8 years (see below), plus they get 2 years extra credit for sitting on their thumbs for four years and failing to be ready to break ground in 2006 ( and that doesn't even address the Centene fiasco ).
The number of times they trotted out new proposals, led on the media, gave false start dates that they then couldn't stand by was just embarrassing. How many renderings of six square block districts were released before a bar mall was built?
That's another thing. Part of the deal for Busch III and all of the tax breaks that came with it was a "Ballpark Village". The idea that a bar mall is a "village" was a branding trick. One which was deployed out of desperation. The hotel, offices and gym JUST opened (or did for a minute there). The apartments should open later this summer. So, when you think about it, it's not 10 years, but actually 14 years from gravel pit to a semblance of an actual Ballpark Village.
But it is nice to finally be getting over that finish line 14 years later. In my estimation Phase II more or less (probably less, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) delivers on their initial representations to the city. So the Cardinals are off the hook and there's still the possibility of a Phase III in store.
BenFred: Trying to find something nice to say about the Cardinals' new statue
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns ... 6af6e.html
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns ... 6af6e.html
It would be better if they had just made it a replica of the first ever Commissioner's Trophy, which the Cardinals won in 1967. That would have made it more charming and historical, especially as it included engravings of each city and team on the flags, including long lost teams like the Washington Senators and Kansas City Athletics.framer wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020BenFred: Trying to find something nice to say about the Cardinals' new statue
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns ... 6af6e.html
OK, so if it had opened in fall 2006, would you have described it as having been a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years, yes or no?wabash wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020As Urbanitas mentioned, the 2 years were extra credit for not being ready to break ground (and for . Which I totally agree with.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020Had BPV I opened in the fall of 2006, would you have complained about the property being a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years?urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020I was counting years between phase openings, so 8 years (see below), plus they get 2 years extra credit for sitting on their thumbs for four years and failing to be ready to break ground in 2006 ( and that doesn't even address the Centene fiasco ).
The number of times they trotted out new proposals, led on the media, gave false start dates that they then couldn't stand by was just embarrassing. How many renderings of six square block districts were released before a bar mall was built?
That's another thing. Part of the deal for Busch III and all of the tax breaks that came with it was a "Ballpark Village". The idea that a bar mall is a "village" was a branding trick. One which was deployed out of desperation. The hotel, offices and gym JUST opened (or did for a minute there). The apartments should open later this summer. So, when you think about it, it's not 10 years, but actually 14 years from gravel pit to a semblance of an actual Ballpark Village.
But it is nice to finally be getting over that finish line 14 years later. In my estimation Phase II more or less (probably less, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) delivers on their initial representations to the city. So the Cardinals are off the hook and there's still the possibility of a Phase III in store.
Pujols Pond was a derisive comparitive reference to McCovey Cove at Oracle Park (where people sit in boats and kayaks to catch homerun balls). Oracle Park opened 6 years before Busch III, and was considered the premier ballpark at the time.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020Yeah, I definitely remember it being called Lake DeWitt, never heard it called Pujols Pond before. I think the Lake DeWitt nickname was probably intended to be a lot more derisive than Pujols Pond.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Apr 09, 2020^ I always remembered it as Lake Dewitt lol.
Again, the point was that Cordish was announced as developer in 2002, and several iterations of renderings for Ballpark Village were released before Busch III even broke ground. And yet, for some reason, most of the site was a gravel parking lot and a big hole that filled with water, surrounded by chain-link fence, until the All Star Game in 2009, when it would have become a national embarrassment for the Cardinals.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020OK, so if it had opened in fall 2006, would you have described it as having been a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years, yes or no?wabash wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020As Urbanitas mentioned, the 2 years were extra credit for not being ready to break ground (and for . Which I totally agree with.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020Had BPV I opened in the fall of 2006, would you have complained about the property being a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years?
The number of times they trotted out new proposals, led on the media, gave false start dates that they then couldn't stand by was just embarrassing. How many renderings of six square block districts were released before a bar mall was built?
That's another thing. Part of the deal for Busch III and all of the tax breaks that came with it was a "Ballpark Village". The idea that a bar mall is a "village" was a branding trick. One which was deployed out of desperation. The hotel, offices and gym JUST opened (or did for a minute there). The apartments should open later this summer. So, when you think about it, it's not 10 years, but actually 14 years from gravel pit to a semblance of an actual Ballpark Village.
But it is nice to finally be getting over that finish line 14 years later. In my estimation Phase II more or less (probably less, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) delivers on their initial representations to the city. So the Cardinals are off the hook and there's still the possibility of a Phase III in store.
I'm not going to forget that just because, almost 20 years later, the site is finally starting to resemble what they led us to expect back then.
Why is it so difficult to give a direct answer to my question?urbanitas wrote: ↑Apr 11, 2020Again, the point was that Cordish was announced as developer in 2002, and several iterations of renderings for Ballpark Village were released before Busch III even broke ground. And yet most of that site was a gravel parking lot and a big hole that filled with water, surrounded by chain-link fence, until the All Star Game in 2009, when it would have been a national embarrassment for the Cardinals.DTGstl314 wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020OK, so if it had opened in fall 2006, would you have described it as having been a gravel parking lot for 2.5 years, yes or no?wabash wrote: ↑Apr 10, 2020As Urbanitas mentioned, the 2 years were extra credit for not being ready to break ground (and for . Which I totally agree with.
The number of times they trotted out new proposals, led on the media, gave false start dates that they then couldn't stand by was just embarrassing. How many renderings of six square block districts were released before a bar mall was built?
That's another thing. Part of the deal for Busch III and all of the tax breaks that came with it was a "Ballpark Village". The idea that a bar mall is a "village" was a branding trick. One which was deployed out of desperation. The hotel, offices and gym JUST opened (or did for a minute there). The apartments should open later this summer. So, when you think about it, it's not 10 years, but actually 14 years from gravel pit to a semblance of an actual Ballpark Village.
But it is nice to finally be getting over that finish line 14 years later. In my estimation Phase II more or less (probably less, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) delivers on their initial representations to the city. So the Cardinals are off the hook and there's still the possibility of a Phase III in store.
I'm not going to forget that just because almost 20 years later, Ballpark Village is starting to resemble what I expected back then.
You've said repeatedly that you consider it a ten year gap between the construction of Busch III and BPV I, using the start of construction of the stadium as the beginning point and the completion of the bar mall as the ending point. Using that standard, you must believe that if BPV I had been completed in the fall of 2006, you would have considered the space it occupies as having been just an undeveloped gravel parking lot for 2.5 years.
While no firm date was given for the construction of BPV at the time Busch III was announced, most people reasonably assumed that development of the site would begin shortly after the completion of Busch III (which didn't technically occur until late May 2006, even though the stadium opened in April). NOBODY assumed that BPV was going to be constructed concurrently with Busch III (mainly because it would have been logistically impossible), and the Cardinals never indicated it would. Nor did they state that construction of BPV would commence immediately after completion of Busch III. I think most people's reasonable expectation at the time was that construction would begin within a year or so after Busch III was completed, and it would open to the public sometime in 2008 or 2009. Even if construction of both of the first two phases had begun immediately after Busch III was finished, there is no possible way they could have completed the project any sooner than late 2008 or early 2009.
It's totally fair to call out the DeWitts for dragging out the development of Ballpark Village way, way longer than was implied at the time it was first announced. It should have happened years ago, and I think they should have had much harsher financial penalties imposed on them for procrastinating so long. And I also agree with those who believe the first phase of the project was extremely underwhelming. Those are all legitimate grievances. But I just don't believe you get to tack on two extra years to the time it took to complete a project when that project could not have possibly been started at the beginning of that timeframe (early 2004), as there was a baseball stadium that was in use sitting on the site at the time. There was no gravel parking lot on the parcel of land immediately north of Clark Avenue in early 2004, in part because there wasn't even a Clark Avenue between Broadway and 8th Street in early 2004. Or early 2005. It did not become a gravel parking lot (technically, more of a giant water-collecting pit) until early 2006 after the remaining debris from Busch II was removed from the site, and it remained a vacant lot until early 2013, when it became a construction site for BPV Phase I. You said at the start of this silly debate that there was a decade-long period in which the Ballpark Village site sat undeveloped as a gravel parking lot. This was simply not the case, not by any measure.
In any event, I think we've reached a stalemate on this matter and aren't going to agree on it, so if you wish to have the last word, feel free. I have nothing further to say about it.
^I did say 10 posts back that I added 2 years because they weren't ready to go with construction docs and permits in hand the moment Busch II rubble was cleared like they could have and should have been. And they did suggest repeatedly in 2003-4 that development of BPV would start as soon as possible if they could reach agreement with the city for the new ballpark.
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It almost blends into the background from that angle, but I like it just the same. 