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PostJul 09, 2013#426

Cupples 7 is on its way down: Cupples complex shrinks as St. Louis struggles to keep historic buildings standing

If there's a silver lining, it's this:
Jeff Rainford, chief of staff to Mayor Francis Slay, said the mayor will hold an “all hands on deck” meeting on Thursday seeking ideas and possible legislation to keep a similar scenario from happening again. That could include anything from stiffer fines on developers to creating a large fund to help the city save buildings before it’s too late.

“We are pulling everybody together in city government to figure out what lessons we have learned from Cupples,” Rainford said.

The problem, according to Rainford, is the difficulty of holding developers accountable for deteriorating buildings.
What are some ideas for the stabilization of privately owned buildings? Some options under discussion include a city-managed building stabilization fund (with liens placed on properties stabilized by the city) and fines on developers who own deteriorating buildings. Any one know how other cities handle this issue, or have other ideas? I've thought about a yearly fee for buildings lacking occupancy permits, maybe one that increases with every subsequent year a property lacks a permit, but that may just encourage more demolition, or discourage investors from buying properties in need of rehab. The stabilization fund/lien sounds promising, though the devil is in the details, especially in keeping it from becoming politicized, with favored developers getting a pass or ward-against-ward squabbling.

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PostJul 10, 2013#427

Was just on STL Business Journals and they have an online poll. Right now the poll is "Should more have been done to save the Cupples 7 building?". 78% responded "No, we have saved enough old buildings.

These are the people that finance projects like these, run businesses, make regional decisions. Almost 80% think we have saved enough...

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PostJul 10, 2013#428

Saw the poll. Only 161 votes. I'm sure the folks on this forum could make a dent in that 78%

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/
poll is on the right side column closer to the bottom.

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PostJul 10, 2013#429

What a terrible poll.

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PostJul 11, 2013#430

Not sure how, "No We did enough to save Cupples" becomes "No we've saved enough old buildings".

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PostJul 11, 2013#431

To be precise, its 'No we've saved enough old building'

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PostJul 11, 2013#432

Yeah. Everyone needs to go vote on this one. Still 71% to 29% with 208 votes. No need to sign up for anything. Use the full site.

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PostJul 11, 2013#433

I honestly don't understand how anyone could think that "we've saved enough historic buildings" in St. Louis. One of the hardest things about living here is watching the city disappear before my eyes. I guess some people just don't get it.

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PostJul 11, 2013#434

This is an interesting poll - mainly because of the way it was posed. Really, what did the city do besides issue an RFP and halt demo a few years ago? And people really think the city did enough? Sounds like someone is trying to make a point in reducing the HTC budget.

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PostJul 11, 2013#435

It's at 64%/36% now.

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PostJul 11, 2013#436

49% - 51% right now.

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PostJul 12, 2013#437




I hate to see it go, but just think of the great view we will have of that beautiful parking garage.

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PostJul 12, 2013#438

Anglophile wrote:I honestly don't understand how anyone could think that "we've saved enough historic buildings" in St. Louis. One of the hardest things about living here is watching the city disappear before my eyes. I guess some people just don't get it.
I think this comment on the poll site captures a big reason why there is support for teardowns - they only see the current blight:

Mark Schupp · Top Commenter
While a great building in a key location, we have given Cupples buildings more than enough time. As residents and visitors are driving into downtown St. Louis from the west, it is an eye sore and is a terrible first impression of the city. I am all for renovating historical buildings and preserving our city's history but only to a point. I am proud of our city and want us to put our best foot forward. All of the buildings bordering 40/64 should be mandated to renovate.


I don't think that is an irrational comment and probably a widely shared one; unfortunately, what this view misses is that there now will be absolutely zero economic benefit (and really a loss) to the City pretty much guaranteed for decades now that the lot will be vacant. But aside from earlier intervention to secure stabilization, are there any thoughts on how to give aesthetic enhancements to vacant eyesores that nevertheless hold long-term economic development potential? I think both the "blight" of the recent Powell Square and Cupples 7 losses had a lot to do with their undoing.

Edit: by the way, the good guys the voices of reason have taken over the poll!

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PostJul 12, 2013#439

^Yes, you're right about people only seeing the current blight. When I see a dilapidated building, I don't see blight; I see opportunity. And to be honest, I'd rather see a dilapidated building that has the potential for renovation than a vacant lot or surface parking. Vacant lots imply that we've lost the battle and that the parcel is probably going to remain vacant for a long time. Abandoned buildings imply that there is still hope that something can be done with them, but that hope is extinguished once the building is demolished and the "opportunity" then disappears.

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PostJul 12, 2013#440

Well, other than the opportunity for more surface parking downtown...

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PostJul 25, 2013#441

markinlondon wrote:
I hate to see it go, but just think of the great view we will have of that beautiful parking garage.
That almost hacks me off more than the loss of the building. But the Slay administration's double-talk about preservation- and the sketchy deal that led to this situation- tick me off more than anything though.

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PostJul 25, 2013#442

OK, so Cupples 7 is coming down. Sad and wasteful, but that's the way it is.

Besides the building itself, though, what are the reverberating effects of this building's demise? The City has a huge loss from unpaid taxes, and it's not actually the City's fault that the building was left to rot and turn to crap. The fault of that lies with the developers who bought the building, didn't secure it properly, allowed it to rot out, and never paid their taxes. What's to become of them? Will the City be suing them for back-due taxes and the costs of demo?

Concurrently, can the City put together a structure that holds building owners accountable for a lack of reasonable care and maintenance of their structures, to prevent someone from just buying a property and letting it rot out? Not something that prohibits people from working on redevelopments of historical buildings, but something to ensure that a building is minimally properly mothballed while waiting for a full redevelopment to take place.

The true tragedy would be to let this building come down with the lessons learned unheeded and forgotten.

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PostJul 25, 2013#443

gone corporate wrote:Concurrently, can the City put together a structure that holds building owners accountable for a lack of reasonable care and maintenance of their structures, to prevent someone from just buying a property and letting it rot out? Not something that prohibits people from working on redevelopments of historical buildings, but something to ensure that a building is minimally properly mothballed while waiting for a full redevelopment to take place.

The true tragedy would be to let this building come down with the lessons learned unheeded and forgotten.
Good comment. Hate to see a new loop-hole/process develop where in a developer buys a decent enough old building, lets it deteriorate, declares it blighted, and demands tax incentives to demo and redevelop the now useless building.

This is the Show-Me state afterall, I don't care how awesome Phases II and III would have been if developers never get around to finishing them...

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PostJul 25, 2013#444

gone corporate wrote:...can the City put together a structure that holds building owners accountable for a lack of reasonable care and maintenance of their structures...
i'm certainly not laying the entirety of the blame on the City but the fact that such a structure doesn't already exist
is in large part the City's fault. the biggest obstacle, perhaps, is that the city charter is going to have to be amended to allow for more severe policing in order for such a structure to be effective. to do that is going to require near-unanimous backing by the City and a concerted PR effort to get the votes.

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PostJul 25, 2013#445

gone corporate wrote:The true tragedy would be to let this building come down with the lessons learned unheeded and forgotten.
Agreed. But this is exactly what I expect from a city government that, in one way or another, repeatedly demonstrates a lack of concern for the integrity of the built environment.

And sweet Jesus, that parking garage should be a crime against humanity. It's going to be one of the most visible buildings in that area now though. :roll:

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PostJul 25, 2013#446

urban_dilettante wrote:
gone corporate wrote:...can the City put together a structure that holds building owners accountable for a lack of reasonable care and maintenance of their structures...
i'm certainly not laying the entirety of the blame on the City but the fact that such a structure doesn't already exist
is in large part the City's fault. the biggest obstacle, perhaps, is that the city charter is going to have to be amended to allow for more severe policing in order for such a structure to be effective. to do that is going to require near-unanimous backing by the City and a concerted PR effort to get the votes.
Which all gets back to one hard reality - money. Developer having money to be able maintain a structure as well as pay taxes and the banker when it doesn't generate revenues and money for city to enforce its own ordinances and regulations.

Which gets back to the idea that makes the most sense long term to me at end of day, stabilization assistance fund to preserve "commercial" structures. So the city and the banker is in a better position if the developer fails to make the project happen and defaults.

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PostAug 12, 2013#447

Cupples 7 is coming down right now.








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PostAug 12, 2013#448

@UrbanReviewSTL tweeted this pic-

"Cupples 7 had an intact internal wall.."



The City just wanted this building demo'd. They didn't want to save it.

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PostAug 13, 2013#449

stlien wrote:The City just wanted this building demo'd. They didn't want to save it.
Yep. But don't worry- isn't the mayor creating a task force to save buildings while he's conveniently refusing to take a stand on the two threatened structures at Tenth and Locust streets? :roll:

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PostAug 13, 2013#450

stlien wrote:@UrbanReviewSTL tweeted this pic-

"Cupples 7 had an intact internal wall.."



The City just wanted this building demo'd. They didn't want to save it.
Too bad they can't/won't save the portion of the building on the right. Looks like it's in decent shape.

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