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PostAug 02, 2022#176

More amateur Amtrak thoughts. 

It really is strange to me that the state of Missouri hasn't pursued Amtrak access for Springfield, Branson, and Columbia. 

Seems like it would make some sense to have a line that runs through Columbia, Jefferson City, Osage Beach, Springfield, Branson, one or two of the Northwest Arkansas cities, Broken Arrow, Tulsa, and Oklahoma City. Perhaps it would even connect with the Quincy line in Illinois on its other end, with Hannibal getting a station. 

Jefferson City could become a pretty significant transfer station under this vision. It would connect St. Louis and Kansas City by rail to Mark Twain tourism in Hannibal, MU and Columbia, the Lake of the Ozarks, the state's third-largest city in Springfield, the state's largest tourist trap in Branson, beautiful Northwest Arkansas, and the Oklahoma sites. 

I think this line would definitely get some ridership, especially if Jefferson City layovers could be scheduled to be pretty short. Jefferson City's Amtrak station is optimally placed, near the Missouri State Capitol, Missouri monuments, riverfront, and High Street, but still...
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PostAug 02, 2022#177

MODOT did a study, I believe in the early 2010s, of Amtrak between St. Louis and Springfield. Never moved forward because of 1) Lack of funding 2) Train tracks were so curvy as to make the trip between STL and Springfield 6 hours. 
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PostAug 02, 2022#178

Amtrak factoid I never knew. If it's over 95 degrees the train must go into "slow mode".

The conductor told me this. I had no idea. I'm pretty sure he said 95 degrees, I hope it wasn't 90. Can't recall for sure but there is a temp where the train must slow way down.
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PostAug 02, 2022#179

PeterXCV wrote: ↑
Aug 02, 2022
MODOT did a study, I believe in the early 2010s, of Amtrak between St. Louis and Springfield. Never moved forward because of 1) Lack of funding 2) Train tracks were so curvy as to make the trip between STL and Springfield 6 hours. 
I wouldn't mind a curving, six-hour train ride to Springfield if the route is scenic. With it running through the Ozarks, I would think that it would be very scenic. 
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PostAug 02, 2022#180

I feel like the N/S line through COMO and Quincy would be pretty useful. Perhaps it could even get some support from Illinois considering it would have direct Chicago connections?

I also wouldn't be against something running in the alignment along 44. Connecting Rolla, Fort Leonard Wood, and Springfield would all be fantastic ridership generators. Split a line off to Tulsa/Oklahoma City and another towards Bentonville/Fayetteville and Fort Smith.
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PostAug 02, 2022#181

Here's a Missouri railroad map to aid your dreaming

https://parkhillsmo.net/media/1068/rail ... 061809.pdf
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PostAug 02, 2022#182

^Thank you for that. That's going to be fun to use as a dream guide.

Unfortunately, and kind of shockingly, there is no north-south line that runs through the center of the state. As such, I would definitely settle for the line that goes to Springfield directly from St. Louis. Looks like Sullivan, Rolla, and Lebanon would be stops before Springfield. 

Unfortunately, neither Branson nor Joplin could be stops on this line. And, obviously, neither could Columbia. 
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PostAug 02, 2022#183

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 02, 2022
PeterXCV wrote: ↑
Aug 02, 2022
MODOT did a study, I believe in the early 2010s, of Amtrak between St. Louis and Springfield. Never moved forward because of 1) Lack of funding 2) Train tracks were so curvy as to make the trip between STL and Springfield 6 hours. 
I wouldn't mind a curving, six-hour train ride to Springfield if the route is scenic. With it running through the Ozarks, I would think that it would be very scenic. 
It's extremely scenic. Quite pretty. I've had the pleasure of riding about three quarters of it as a part of the crew of 1522 back in the day. It's got some pretty good grades on it too, which is great if you want to see a steam locomotive working hard. Rolla Hill is probably the most noteworthy one. But the only 77 mph track is the stretch from about Cuba to St. Louis. After that it you're moseying along at a fairly leisurely pace. Would be a great spot for an observation car, but it'd never be fast. Even with my fantasy trains it still require three and a half hours. (I might be able to get it down to three, which is the highway timing, if I disentangle the commuter operations in St. Louis.)
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PostAug 02, 2022#184

Six hours would probably keep a number of potential riders away, even if the ride would be extremely scenic and peaceful. 

Is there really no way that they could make that route faster? Is it really so curvy that the train could never reach higher speeds to bring down trip duration? Is there a lot of traffic on it? 

I also wonder what duration the trip would need to be for Amtrak officials, state officials, etc., to act on it. 

4.5 hours? 
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PostAug 02, 2022#185

^I feel like you could jump over top the Missouri and Northern Arkansas in Aurora and use that to access Joplin. They might even be amenable to it. Shortlines and regionals can be easier to work with than the class Is.
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PostAug 02, 2022#186

Not sure what customer base drives the most traffic.  Rolla and Springfield both have a sizable college population.  Might appeal to them if it was started as a bi weekly Friday & Sunday.  Misses the best vacation spots (Branson, Osage Beach) but those are seasonal and almost certainly require a car.  Wish it got a little closer to Ft Leonard Wood as well.  Might even become the preferred way to get new trainees to the base.

Ultimately Amtrak service will be driven by service between major population centers.  I wonder how much interest there would be in amtrak service beetween OKC Tulsa and STL.  From a St. Louis perspective i gotta think a East or Southeast connection to Indy or Nashville woudl be a higher priority.  But from a A State of Missouri perspective connecting to Springfield seems like it could be higher value for state moneys (if they value amtrak at all...) and an OKC connection to Tulsa seems like would definitely be of interest to Oklahoma but extending it to St. Louis might not move the needle much.

If they could get the speeds up though and made the terminus Dallas i could see the route as more appealing than the Texas Eagle for service from Chicago to Dallas because it goes through bigger population centers in MO and Oklahoma. Springfield, Tulsa and OKC compared to Little Rock and Texarkana
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PostAug 02, 2022#187

^There's actually a branch off the Springfield Sub directly onto the base. Starts just west of Newburg. I expect they used to run troop trains out of St. Louis to the base, but it's still there. Probably because of the engineers down there.
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PostAug 02, 2022#188

There's been a push for service to Hannibal, MO by extending the Carl Sandburg from Quincy: https://www.wgem.com/2022/01/05/hanniba ... k-station/ 

I think extending that train to St. Louis via Hannibal would be great. I'm sure the trip to would be much longer on that track than Lincoln Service but another 2 trains a day to Chicago would be a plus too. 
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PostAug 02, 2022#189

I think there's a historical connection between Hannibal and St. Louis that is undeniable, and I think there would be value in adding Hannibal to the system. 

I do wonder how much Missouri cares about making that a rail connection, though. 

I agree with Enginerd when he says that St. Louis leadership would care more about finding connections to the east and southeast. 
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PostAug 02, 2022#190

I suggested extending from Quincy to STL back in 2014.

https://nextstl.com/2014/03/passenger-r ... -st-louis/
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PostAug 02, 2022#191

Still on the believe that Amtrak should really look at expanding service as well as infrastructure improvements on existing corridors first & foremost and then extensions that connect with current service.    You could add a lot of single service from this metro area to outliers but have tough time seeing the ridership let alone the benefit unless the country as a whole wants to support much more service.    So my thoughts

1) Lincoln service - get the last mile speeds up and more grade separation/less road interface through urban areas - Chicago, Springfield and Metro East.   I know IL dreams of separate HSR route but getting Lincoln Service w overall average running consistently under car travel time would be huge
 2) River Runner - talk about an opportunity to add frequency, extend north from KC to Omaha, or how about west & down south to Oklahoma (where existing service comes up from Dallas to Tulsa, believe, or east from St. Louis as many have mentioned.  Just some great opportunity for regional connective in middle of the country
3) More daily Chicago - New Orleans trains with at least one daily routed through St. Louis - that would connect say close to 13ish million people between Chicagoland, St. Louis, Memphis & New Orleans   In other words, I would much rather see St. Louis have connections south to Memphis and onto New Orleans before any such service for Quincy or Hannibal.  Just makes more sense to me.  

Another outlier, wonder if Amtrak would see some success with another daily auto train corridor or not?   Maybe Bay area (say just south of San Jose) to Los Angeles or a snowbird corridor from midwest to Florida. 
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PostAug 03, 2022#192

I'm increasingly inclined to believe we need something almost cabinet level: a counterpart to the Federal Highway Administration that gets the same level of funding. (More, ideally, since it could help to quickly cut the need for FHA funding.) The Federal Transit Administration or possibly the Federal Rail Administration, to make it clear this is about boxes and not just people. We need to rebuild our passenger rail network, and I'd argue also our less than carload, and even carload freight network. I understand why the railroads push for every greater efficiency, but that push has, ironically, made our country less efficient and more destructive, since it's pushed all but the highest bulk goods onto the highways. (Longer trains implies fewer trains, which means loose car railroading takes more time and becomes more complicated and less competitive.) I know there's a lot of resistance to federal subsidies for anything but automobiles, but if we're going to subsidize the least efficient and most dangerous transportation we need to subsidize better methods to level the playing field. It's past time. Let's make transportation sexy by making it social: safe, sane, and consensual. You're never going to meet that special someone stuck in traffic. There are real benefits to having a community where people actually talk to their neighbors more often than when they happen to mow the lawn at the same time. Anyway . . . 

Yes, I like this Quincy idea. And it's a very good alignment with few grade crossings, though it is quite flood prone for some reason.
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PostMay 27, 2023#193

I write this as I glide across the Illinois countryside on the Carl Sandburg, pulling into Quincy 15 minutes early. 4 hour total travel time.
————
https://www.newstribune.com/news/2022/j ... or-amtrak/

“People all over the state have come to MoDOT and said they want to talk about service. There are people in Hannibal who want to connect to Quincy and maybe St. Louis.”
————

Just my two cents. The towns along Carl Sandburg support the service very well. I think St. Louis would benefit greatly from having a second Chicago - St. Louis via Galesburg, Macomb, Quincy, Hannibal.
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PostMay 28, 2023#194

^That would be truly incredible. It would be fantastic to see a new Mark Twain Zephyr.
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PostMay 28, 2023#195

Hannibal folks have been asking for Amtrak service since at least 2010. I don't think there's even been a study to determine what it would take.  The News Leader story addxb2 posted was from last year. The STL-KCY route got back the service that was cut because MOLeg hadn't been funding it enough and had built up a bill with Amtrak. A year later and we see that MOLeg thinks everyone should drive with its $2.8B general revenue subsidy to rebuild and widen I70. Was there anything for rail infrastructure? The Gov proposed $35M for crossing improvements. Did that get passed?

https://www.whig.com/archive/article/ha ... 2ef94.html

I suggested extending from Quincy to Stl with a station in St Charles in 2014

https://nextstl.com/2014/03/passenger-r ... -st-louis/

PostMay 28, 2023#196

Meanwhile in Minnesota

Duluth News Tribune - Duluth-Twin Cities passenger rail funded in transportation budget deal

Under the current plan, NLX would use 152 miles of existing BNSF Railway track and connect Target Field in downtown Minneapolis to the St. Louis County Depot in Duluth. Stops are planned in Coon Rapids, Cambridge, Hinckley and Superior, Wisconsin.

Sections of track would be built alongside the main route so the passenger trains could move out of the way as freight trains move through. Passenger trains would travel about 90 mph along the route.
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/ ... udget-deal

CBSNews - New daily train line between Twin Cities and Duluth is set for construction
MINNEAPOLIS -- A passenger train from the Twin Cities to Duluth and back is now set to become a reality. In this session's transportation bill, Minnesota lawmakers approved nearly $200 million for the project, unlocking federal funds that will cover the remainder of the project.

The captivating beauty of Minnesota's North Shore is set to become even more accessible with the Northern Lights Express. The line goes from the Twin Cities to the Twin Ports, with stops in Minneapolis, Coon Rapids, Cambridge, Hinckley, and Superior, Wisconsin.
...
The train will go 90 mph and make four round trips per day. A one-way trip from Minneapolis to Duluth would cost from $30 to $35 and take about two and a half hours.
...
The line will use some existing BNSF Railway tracks that aren't in use, speeding up the timeline and lowering startup costs. It's estimated the line will be ready for service in about four or five years.
https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/ ... struction/

PostMay 28, 2023#197

Bridge Michigan - Michigan may spend big on passenger trains, eying service to Canada, Up North

Some Michigan Democrats, now in the legislative majority, also want to chip in on passenger rail improvements. The state Senate budget proposal included $100 million for grants to “encourage high-speed rail development” by providing matching funds that local governments need to qualify for federal money.
https://www.bridgedetroit.com/michigan- ... -up-north/

Michigan's Railroad History PDF

https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Projec ... istory.pdf
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PostMay 28, 2023#198

^Oh, you've been a quite rational voice calling for transportation reform and more equitable spending. I completely acknowledge that. And there's probably no suggestion possible that's truly original, as every route you can think of had a train at one time, and often several. That said, I'm always grateful to see what you write.
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PostAug 01, 2023#199

I spy a line from STL to Indy. Hope something comes of this.

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PostAug 01, 2023#200

Further down in that presentation there is a map that shows a route connecting St. Louis with Tulsa through Springfield.  That would be interesting. Missouri would never pay for it though.
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