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PostJul 03, 2016#51

^ good call on the Ambassador Theater.... 17 stories of offices above the theater. Can't find a height on it but apparently not quite as tall as the Third National Bank; but certainly an extremely frustrating demo of a 1920s beauty. Has to be one of the top five worst demos...

http://vanishingstl.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... lding.html

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PostJul 03, 2016#52

The Southwest Bank @ Grand & Gravois, Park Plaza in the CWE, Continental Life Building in Grand Center, and Desloges Tower come to mind as impressive examples of 20-30's Art Deco towers. Even back then St. Louis had neighborhood diversity and strength that other Midwestern cities didn't quite compare to. So maybe there's just more geographic distribution than Downtown concentration. In some sense it may have been a rather active and ambitious period (appropriate for the roaring the 20's), since each of those projects represents construction on a completely different scale than anything else around it at the time.

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PostJul 03, 2016#53

Further, there were a great many mid-rise structures built during the twenties, downtown and elsewhere, that aren't skyscraper gothic: The U-Club tower and Missouri Theatre building in Midtown, the Ambassador Theatre building downtown, countless apartment buildings in the West End. The red brick tower downtown that now houses the GSA is a nice mid-rise skyscraper gothic structure, even if it isn't as tall as some of the other buildings mentioned. St. Louis just never got into the tall building wars in the way that some other cities did. Even then I'd guess we had more mid-rise structures spread over a larger area and fewer high-rise buildings downtown. More density, but less height.

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PostJul 03, 2016#54

STLrainbow wrote:While we are talking height, something I wish we had a couple more examples of in our downtown skyline are 1920's towers like the Southwestern Bell and Union-Pacific office buildings and the Civil Courts building gracing our skyline...

I know we demo'd a lot of gorgeous buildings over the years, but I don't think any were legit towers of their height or period; according to Built St. Louis, the tallest building demolished downtown was the approx. 17 story Third National Bank, which was located on the site of the present day One Metropolitan Square:

http://www.builtstlouis.net/opos/3rdnationalbank.html

Another source I found says that was 228'

Not quite sure what to make of what seems to be a rather quiet period of tower construction compared to a lot other cities. EDIT: looking at population trends, it looks like STL already had begun to lag behind in the twenties and we even declined in the 30s... perhaps the 20's boom wasn't as big here economically, either.
I believe that one major reason for the glaring lack of art deco towers in St. Louis despite it being one of the biggest US cities during that era of construction is that the city had a height limit that prohibited buildings to rise taller than 2 1/2 times the width of the street on which it was located. I'm not sure when the ordinance was enacted or lifted or the boundaries it dictated, but that would explain the predominance of dense, squatty historic buildings and relative scarcity of taller pre-war towers that became signature features of other big cities (NYC, Philly, Detroit, Chicago), and even smaller cities (KC, Tulsa, etc). Considering how old and big St. Louis is/was during the Roaring '20s and '30s, you'd never know it when looking at the downtown skyline from typical postcard views. Without the Arch, which gives St. Louis one of the most recognizable skylines in the country (if not the world), I'm afraid we'd be left with one of the most nondescript major city skylines, dominated by unremarkable boxes from the 1960s-80s that hide the historic meat and bones that really define the cityscape. On top of that, the downtown skyline has been virtually unchanged for 20 years! I can't think of another large US city with a downtown skyline as stagnant as St. Louis's. BUT I do declare that Met Square and One City Centre are so shamelessly obnoxiously '80s, even Molly Ringwald is jealous! They may not be beautiful in the traditional sense, but they definitely have character and I appreciate them.

Despite the scarcity of historic towers downtown, St. Louis certainly has more pre-war highrises outside of its CBD than all other large Midwestern cities aside from Chicago and perhaps Detroit.

At the end of the day, St. Louis has never put much emphasis on height, so if tall sexy skyscrapers float your boat, St. Louis is most definitely not the city for you. I'm cool with that, but it's about time we add a few spikes to our clunky old Apple II E of a skyline!

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PostJul 03, 2016#55

^ interesting history.

Also, no doubt the city built some impressive buildings in downtown and scattered elsewhere during the 20s/early 30s, but there also is no doubt that we already had begun to slip in our national stature during this period from the great heights early in the 20th c. In fact, we were dead last among 10 peers* in population growth during the 1920s -- not only in percentage terms, but also in raw numbers. And only Cincinnati and Indianapolis had less raw population growth between 1910 and 1930 than Saint Louis City. (But both had a higher percentage increase.)

I don't think it is a surprise that this relative lack of growth during the period is reflected to some degree in our skyline.... as some of our then smaller peers began to catch up with us and come into their own, it makes sense that they were looking to the skies with this burst of energy and confidence.

* peer cities are Kansas City, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Chicago, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Indianapolis and Detroit. (Indianapolis was the smallest of the 10 during the '20s and is the only one that appears to have lacked numerous examples of tall towers in the 20s to early 30s period.)

The teens and 20s should have been a period where we grew up as a town with tall towers and subways... you blew it dudes of the past!

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PostJul 04, 2016#56

It's interesting to note that Hugh Ferriss, the greatest architectural illustrator of the Deco era, was from St. Louis. Here's a small sampling of his work:

http://thenonist.com/index.php/thenonis ... of_gotham/

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PostJul 05, 2016#57

^ those are pretty incredible... and incredibly huge!

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PostFeb 19, 2017#58

Bullish on St. Louis

Sarimsakci has lofty goals for St. Louis.

He said he’s still exploring a partnership with Sovereign Partners to overhaul the mammoth 718,000-square-foot Butler Brothers building in St. Louis, at 1717 Olive St., and has scouted property at 1920 N. Broadway in north St. Louis for redevelopment — with aspirations of building a 50-story high-rise on the Mississippi riverfront.

“When we go into new markets, we have to do more than one project because I’m mobilizing my entire team.”

Sarimsakci said he’s keen on St. Louis because of its strong university ties with Washington University and Saint Louis University. The market has a strong employment base in sectors such as defense, health care and finance, with a growing entrepreneurial community.

But more than anything, he said, it’s an untapped market.

“We know St. Louis fits into our picture,” he said. “I don’t think St. Louisans give themselves enough credit. I can see the same thing happening in St. Louis as happened in Dallas in the early 2000s. But St. Louis, I think, is actually in better physical shape than Dallas was.”

Michael said Hudson has similar plans of completing multiple projects.

He said Hudson’s and Alterra’s projects should spur other developers into action.

“The indirect benefit of these types of big projects is the confidence it can give to other developers to go in and develop behind them,” he said. “We’ve seen it before. These projects give confidence to investors to create and do projects nearby that they might otherwise have been unsure of.”

link: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... -town.html

PostFeb 19, 2017#59

^ I really like the North Riverfront District and if St. Louis had the kind of growth of Dallas. I could definitely see that area becoming a second Washington Avenue, but I think a 50 story tower on the North Riverfront (if ever built) would be more beneficial closer to the Four Season Casino. The Bottle District site, or even in the area where they were going to build the stadium. With that said, I do agree that development begets further development and St. Louis would definitely benefit from taking risks and just building. I think St. Louis has been so traumatized by deindustrialization and white flight that local lenders and developers are HIGHLY risk averse, which continues us down the path of slow growth and stagnation. Whether we like it or not, people (especially transient ones with choices) are attracted to new shiny buildings, and will likely not take notice of our historic stock unless they see some modern high rises popping up next to them. Also, many people seem not to realize how many jobs are created with construction. Places like Atlanta and Dallas have literally built themselves up from simply building and keeping the cranes going. St. Louis has to start building, that's really like the last blue collar industry that can afford somebody a middle class lifestyle.

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PostFeb 19, 2017#60

I hope they announce soon.


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PostFeb 19, 2017#61

^What is there to like about the "north riverfront district"? (Serious question as I view it as an industrial wasteland that's relatively remote and isolated from most of Downtown and the rest of the City.)

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PostFeb 19, 2017#62

He can talk all he wants about building a 50 story tower in the "North Riverfront District", but financing it would be impossible. The bankers would laugh him out of their office.

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PostFeb 19, 2017#63

The North Riverfront District would look great if it were like River North In Nashville

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PostFeb 19, 2017#64

goat314 wrote:
Feb 19, 2017
^ I really like the North Riverfront District and if St. Louis had the kind of growth of Dallas. I could definitely see that area becoming a second Washington Avenue, but I think a 50 story tower on the North Riverfront (if ever built) would be more beneficial closer to the Four Season Casino
My guess is this talk of 1920 N Broadway and a north riverfront tower indeed are two separate visions.... 1920 N. Broadway is a great building that could be a terrific first crack at mixed-use redevelopment of that area.






From everything I can tell this guy is a preservationist and that isn't a building he'd go out of his way to knock in order to try and build a 50 story tower in a location that makes no sense for that. What does make sense is redeveloping the warehouse and being the first to make a move there and keeping any thoughts of a tower closer to the Four Seasons as he mentioned earlier.

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PostFeb 20, 2017#65

I think his best shot at a successful tower will be on the Landing with an underground garage for Arch visitors. He's calling St. Louis untapped. An obvious solution is staring you in the face when you're talking about adding successful class A office space and new residential. A tower that far from downtown will look ridiculous.

Also, from the wording of the article, it seems that he's wanting to simply rehab 1920 Broadway, and wants to build a tower on the river, probably closer to downtown.

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PostFeb 20, 2017#66

^ I have tough time seeing a new 50 story building anytime in the near future with a +40 story office building downtown about to go completely empty.

However, anything he can do to get existing building stock back in play is a great win.

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PostFeb 20, 2017#67

Of course. I also think 50 stories is, well, completely unnecessary at this point. Where are the jobs going to come from to fill that up?

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PostFeb 21, 2017#68

In a perfect world the old buildings would be a great anchor for residential development in that area. Unfortunately STL is still experiencing negative growth. If that area is to come back it needs to come back piece by piece. I would rather have the 50 story building (or 4-5 ten story buildings) in the Landing or the lots in and around Washington Ave.

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PostFeb 22, 2017#69

Its good to know a out of state developer is bullish on St.Louis however a 50 floor tower would look awfully out of place i would prefer it located in the CBD built a top the Keiner Garages

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PostFeb 22, 2017#70

If they were to build it on the Kiener Garages, I would suggest they demolish those garages.


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PostFeb 22, 2017#71

chriss752 wrote:
Feb 22, 2017
If they were to build it on the Kiener Garages, I would suggest they demolish those garages.


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I couldn't agree with you more those garages are atrocious.

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PostFeb 22, 2017#72

St.Louis1764 wrote:
Feb 22, 2017
chriss752 wrote:
Feb 22, 2017
If they were to build it on the Kiener Garages, I would suggest they demolish those garages.


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I couldn't agree with you more those garages are atrocious.
Horrible. Plus their destruction would make downtown smell better. No more homeless/Cardinal fan pee smell.

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PostFeb 22, 2017#73

Remember, this isn't the first time he's mentioned a 50-story tower. Back in June 2016 he said he's envisioning it "just north of the Four Seasons" per this thread. I'd assume that's still where he's talking about unless something has changed in the last few months.

Good to see he's still talking about it, and I'm all for a 50-story tower if he can make it work. That's a huge 'if', through. So far so good with Alterra, but I'll believe it when he has financing in place.

-RBB

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PostFeb 22, 2017#74

^ I agree with you that's where they''re looking at for a tower and that is well down the road as an "aspirational" project... for now it's the Jefferson-Arms as the start and the Butler Bros and 1920 N. Broadway as possible follow-ons. If they could do that with a significant riverfront tower as the culmination, that would be a legendary achievement.

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PostFeb 22, 2017#75

if there was significant development, not even a 50 story tower but just real development, in north and south riverfronts near downtown it would go a long way. They are truly untapped areas but I doubt we will see development there until after downtown begins seeing lots more new construction. Kind of like mission bay in san francisco or boston's seaport district. It could happen, but like stlrainbow said its well down the road.

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