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PostJun 29, 2022#26

chriss752 wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
I thought more people on this forum would be reacting to this than they have. I think it's a pretty big deal in more ways than one.

Think about it. The AHM Group, which I assumed was a small development firm, is going huge on this. They went from being a small developer to wanting to swing and play with the big guys, and I welcome their entry. They have investors on board it seems, which shows everyone involved in this is bullish on Downtown West. This is continuing to show off the MLS effect in the neighborhood. Why need someone like Cordish when you have DSG, AHM, King, and Midas? Lastly, this is the second mass-timber structure proposed in the state (the other is at City Foundry), that means St. Louis will be leading the way with this building material.

It's all good stuff. I hope it all happens too, but I won't be upset if the tower is more or less halved to 15 floors. When I first heard whispers of a high-rise in Downtown West, and particularly just north of the MLS Stadium, back in January, I figured something in the 10-12, then later 12-16 floor range. The range made sense. It wasn't too tall but was tall enough to be classified as a high-rise and make an impact on the skyline. When I heard it was AHM who bought the parcels, and the dots connected, I was surprised that they were going to do a high-rise, so I again revised my expectations down to 8-12 floors.

Seeing the 29-floor proposal made my jaw drop. You're talking about a One Cardinal Way/Albion West End height project in the middle of a bunch of old, and much shorter, warehouses and commercial buildings. Of course, that's only if it's built.

And when you couple the high-rise with a series of other investments, it just blows my mind. We're getting four buildings fixed up and two, smaller infill projects built that help densify this present-day wasteland of gravel lots and parking. 

One final comment: the area isn't done yet.
Looks great on paper but I've never heard of AHM.  Do they have a website?  Who are the principals?  Brian Pratt is quoted in the Post's article.  Is it these guys? https://www.ballastcre.com/about
The jump from a 3-story building in TGS to a 29-story tower (plus 4 other major buildings) is significant.
This was first mentioned publicly 3 days ago and now they have preliminary approval of a 10-year tax abatement.
Not being critical.  I hope they can do even half of it.
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PostJun 29, 2022#27

NHampton wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
chriss752 wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
I thought more people on this forum would be reacting to this than they have. I think it's a pretty big deal in more ways than one.

Think about it. The AHM Group, which I assumed was a small development firm, is going huge on this. They went from being a small developer to wanting to swing and play with the big guys, and I welcome their entry. They have investors on board it seems, which shows everyone involved in this is bullish on Downtown West. This is continuing to show off the MLS effect in the neighborhood. Why need someone like Cordish when you have DSG, AHM, King, and Midas? Lastly, this is the second mass-timber structure proposed in the state (the other is at City Foundry), that means St. Louis will be leading the way with this building material.

It's all good stuff. I hope it all happens too, but I won't be upset if the tower is more or less halved to 15 floors. When I first heard whispers of a high-rise in Downtown West, and particularly just north of the MLS Stadium, back in January, I figured something in the 10-12, then later 12-16 floor range. The range made sense. It wasn't too tall but was tall enough to be classified as a high-rise and make an impact on the skyline. When I heard it was AHM who bought the parcels, and the dots connected, I was surprised that they were going to do a high-rise, so I again revised my expectations down to 8-12 floors.

Seeing the 29-floor proposal made my jaw drop. You're talking about a One Cardinal Way/Albion West End height project in the middle of a bunch of old, and much shorter, warehouses and commercial buildings. Of course, that's only if it's built.

And when you couple the high-rise with a series of other investments, it just blows my mind. We're getting four buildings fixed up and two, smaller infill projects built that help densify this present-day wasteland of gravel lots and parking. 

One final comment: the area isn't done yet.
Looks great on paper but I've never heard of AHM.  Do they have a website?  Who are the principals?  Brian Pratt is quoted in the Post's article.  Is it these guys? https://www.ballastcre.com/about
The jump from a 3-story building in TGS to a 29-story tower (plus 4 other major buildings) is significant.
This was first mentioned publicly 3 days ago and now they have preliminary approval of a 10-year tax abatement.
Not being critical.  I hope they can do even half of it.
This may get scaled down a bit but I think we'll see something similar built because it has major institutional backing. The people that funded the MLS stadium have a major interest in seeing this area redevelopment. Arch to Park is doubling down on the Central Corridor big time.
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PostJun 29, 2022#28

I think cautiously optimistic is a good way to describe my feelings at this point, I will be downright excited though one ground has broken, cranes are up, and this project is underway.

This may be superficial, but anyone else looking forward to seeing the soccer stadium on TV with this on the north side of the field? With the downtown skyline to the east, this to the north, and projects coming up near Jefferson on the west I think this presents a good image of our city to anyone watching a soccer broadcast. I think we'll have one of the better urban backdrops in the league.
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PostJun 29, 2022#29

I think we'd all be more excited if they hadn't teased us with a 29 story tower. That kind of makes the whole project feel "to good to be true". I am impressed with the backers they've lined up, though. Fingers crossed
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PostJun 29, 2022#30

This is incredible I really hope that it gets done. Thinking about how you can see the Ansira loft building (6 stories) and the Pear Tree (11 Stories) from Lafeyette Square makes me wonder how prominent this one will be if it gets done.
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PostJun 29, 2022#31

I hope this sets a precedent of building tall in western DTW and Midtown alley simply because there isn't that much "urban" fabric remaining. It thins out to 2-3 blocks west of Jefferson, make it 4-5 if you include the barely developed Samuel Shepherd and Delmar in that.
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PostJun 29, 2022#32

Excited for all of this but especially for the Lambert Building renovation, what a great piece of St. Louis history. Listerine was invented there!
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PostJun 29, 2022#33

dredger wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
^^^ Chris, I think everyone on the forum sees this development as a great proposal and hopefull.   The tallest timber frame structure in the US would be huge as you noted.  But also have a feeling of cautious optimism to proof is in the pudding as this is pretty substantial proposal for the area and typically take a while to come together.    Heck, I think it will be a pretty good year if Koplar can move forward on its CWE tower and 2CW is announced along with the two or three other smaller downtown infill projects breaking ground.   Too have a 29 story timber frame tower thrown in would be be a great sign for the city.

Probably good as any thread but anyone surprised on the number of projects getting incentives approved?  Seemed like a 180 or at least the aldermen saying that we want stuff built.  Not sure what is the right balance but seems you can to far one way and or to far the other way, or simply a lot gets built with no immediate tax gains and or nothing gets built as development comes to an all stop
Cautious optimism a good way to go about this project, and others.

As for the incentive talk, it is interesting but also not so much. I'm unsure about the McPherson and Kingshighway proposal, but this one on Locust includes affordable and workforce units right out of the gates. Looking at what has made Tishaura sign-off on tax abatements recently is the inclusion of workforce and/or affordable housing units as well as maybe a contribution to an affordable housing fund. I think developers realize this and, as such, are beginning to structure their plans to include these requests in exchange for incentives. I don't really see a 180-degree turn here on any aldermen's trajectory. Most aldermen understand the benefits these developments have on the city whether they seek an incentive or not. Everyone understands the need to slow the downward population trajectory.

The mayor, despite her faults in my view, has apparently shown what it takes to get her support without actually putting it into words yet. So, we'll see what happens. 

PostJun 29, 2022#34

NHampton wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
chriss752 wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
I thought more people on this forum would be reacting to this than they have. I think it's a pretty big deal in more ways than one.

Think about it. The AHM Group, which I assumed was a small development firm, is going huge on this. They went from being a small developer to wanting to swing and play with the big guys, and I welcome their entry. They have investors on board it seems, which shows everyone involved in this is bullish on Downtown West. This is continuing to show off the MLS effect in the neighborhood. Why need someone like Cordish when you have DSG, AHM, King, and Midas? Lastly, this is the second mass-timber structure proposed in the state (the other is at City Foundry), that means St. Louis will be leading the way with this building material.

It's all good stuff. I hope it all happens too, but I won't be upset if the tower is more or less halved to 15 floors. When I first heard whispers of a high-rise in Downtown West, and particularly just north of the MLS Stadium, back in January, I figured something in the 10-12, then later 12-16 floor range. The range made sense. It wasn't too tall but was tall enough to be classified as a high-rise and make an impact on the skyline. When I heard it was AHM who bought the parcels, and the dots connected, I was surprised that they were going to do a high-rise, so I again revised my expectations down to 8-12 floors.

Seeing the 29-floor proposal made my jaw drop. You're talking about a One Cardinal Way/Albion West End height project in the middle of a bunch of old, and much shorter, warehouses and commercial buildings. Of course, that's only if it's built.

And when you couple the high-rise with a series of other investments, it just blows my mind. We're getting four buildings fixed up and two, smaller infill projects built that help densify this present-day wasteland of gravel lots and parking. 

One final comment: the area isn't done yet.
Looks great on paper but I've never heard of AHM.  Do they have a website?  Who are the principals?  Brian Pratt is quoted in the Post's article.  Is it these guys? https://www.ballastcre.com/about
The jump from a 3-story building in TGS to a 29-story tower (plus 4 other major buildings) is significant.
This was first mentioned publicly 3 days ago and now they have preliminary approval of a 10-year tax abatement.
Not being critical.  I hope they can do even half of it.
AHM is a small start-up firm with big backing by outside investors. The smaller Tower Grove South projects, coupled with 1500 South Grand and 2200 Locust, are just four of their present projects. They also own the Urban Chestnut building in the Grove. Let's not forget that they're also presently renovating the old Bavarian Inn at Arsenal and Minnesota and own a large parcel across the street (I've seen the plans for that one). 

The jump from those sorts of deals to something huge in Downtown West demonstrates their ability to connect with investors and be bullish altogether. It helps that they have former Green Street VP Brian Pratt on board, and it helps that they got the investment backing of Greater STL Inc. They've flown mostly under the radar though (by design) and haven't gotten around to making a website yet.

I have hope they can pull this one off.
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PostJun 29, 2022#35

I hope they can pull this off, but I hope they can also completely transform that portion of Morgan Ford just south of the park. 
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PostJun 29, 2022#36

This June 2nd story on Ascent in Milwaukee, whose architect is the same as AHM’s tower, hinted that the Korb and Associates firm was finalizing design for a tower in St. Louis. Now we know where it is.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90756578/is ... to-america
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PostJun 29, 2022#37

The tower looks similar to the next phase at the foundry. Cool though, hope they follow through. Exciting to see what the area will look like in 10 years.
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PostJun 29, 2022#38

framer wrote: ↑
Jun 29, 2022
I think we'd all be more excited if they hadn't teased us with a 29 story tower. That kind of makes the whole project feel "to good to be true". I am impressed with the backers they've lined up, though. Fingers crossed
I think this is about where I am too. I *love* the renderings but I've seen too many massive proposals scaled back to disappointment or cancelled altogether. The description of this as "a vision" and not a proposal doesn't help in my mind.

I'll be rooting hard for it though, it looks genuinely fantastic.

-RBB
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PostJun 29, 2022#39

I dont think you involve a mass timber specific firm just to make you drawings for what if.   
of course plenty of other things can go wrong for this not to happen but i dont think its a for show rendering. ill ask around with a few people at GSTL 
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PostJun 29, 2022#40

With high rise residential views of baseball games and soccer games, when's the blues tower gonna be announced? 😂

In all seriousness, hell ya! All these recent DT announcements are massive. 

I started paying attention to urbanstl and urbanism as a 16/17 year old back in 2008/9 and the depression of unfulfilled renderings stayed with me. Like others, this feels a bit eery of that. Saint Louis finally getting the ball rolling, 5-10 years later than everyone else...just as the market tanks. 

Good to see the heavy hitters finally putting some money into rejuvenating the city with common sense developments, instead of gimmicks.
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PostJun 30, 2022#41

Here's more on that 25 story mass timber building in Milwaukee:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tallest-mass ... 31679.html
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PostJun 30, 2022#42

It's an absolutely gorgeous design. Hopefully it gets built in its full height.
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PostJun 30, 2022#43

Heck i would be happy if they couldn't make the tower happen and they just built everything else on that project plan.  Getting the tower seems almost unacheivable but if it happened... wow.
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PostJun 30, 2022#44

NextSTL - Let's push for bolder sustainability at mass timber tower

https://nextstl.com/2022/06/lets-push-f ... ber-tower/
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PostJun 30, 2022#45

^ Hear, Hear!
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PostJun 30, 2022#46

I live on the metrolink line-  door to door from home to work on metrolink would take 67 mintues (1:07 hour) each way.  it takes me door to door 24 minutes driving.   you know who else knows this?  banks and underwriter's, City may not have a parking minimum for I-zone but no bank will loan $200M for a project with 500 apartments in STL without 1/1 parking on site or by agreement near by.  
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PostJun 30, 2022#47

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Jun 30, 2022
I live on the metrolink line-  door to door from home to work on metrolink would take 67 mintues (1:07 hour) each way.  it takes me door to door 24 minutes driving.   you know who else knows this?  banks and underwriter's, City may not have a parking minimum for I-zone but no bank will loan $200M for a project with 500 apartments in STL without 1/1 parking on site or by agreement near by.  
This is such an unoriginal point that I'm positive everyone on this forum has heard/read it 100 times. 

Even though St. Louis is a car centric city, in my experience it's rare that 100% of tenants have cars. Some of that parking almost always goes to waste, and I know that many of the older apartment buildings in the CWE/Debaliviere do not offer parking to all residents and seem to do fine with leasing. 

Meanwhile, we're not even discussing going below the 1:1 ratio on this project! They are building much more parking than 1 space per unit. 
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PostJun 30, 2022#48

There is no relevance to older buildings that got put up when the city had trolley system literally connecting the entire city and todays new construction and banks risk management
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PostJun 30, 2022#49

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Jun 30, 2022
There is no relevance to older buildings that got put up when the city had trolley system literally connecting the entire city and todays new construction and banks risk management
I mean I can't pretend to know about how bank risk management in development works but I don't think you know much about this either. Like have you personally asked a bank for a loan to develop an apartment building with fewer parking spaces than units? On the subject, there's plenty of recent apartment projects where the number of spaces constructed was equal to the number of units built, and this development has way more than that. 
I mean maybe I'm underestimating you, you also claimed that bank underwriters know that you personally choose to drive to work each day because Metrolink is slower.
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PostJun 30, 2022#50

The other argument that might be in favor for the city right or maybe take the edge off on spaces now is bankers, financers and underwriters will understand that rehab of existing building stock takes a good portion of the material risk as well as reduce some of the  supply chain & schedule uncertainity   Thinking of a interview with Suffolk Construction CEO, bigtime builder based out of Boston, I listened to this morning and the three big headwinds was labor, materials and supply chain.   Not having to put in a foundation and builds walls replaces a big chunk of variable cost as an upfront fixed real estate cost.   Yes, I understand you will still have some cost to do the rehab 

The other thought is that it might take longer for AHM group to pull together is the infill but it also seems like they took their development proposal right out of the Steelcote developer playbook by locking a group of properties (buildings and empty lots) and therefore be able to leverage existing building stock to kick start the development with revenues sooner than later at a cost which will most likely be stable. relative to new build  In the meantime, the empty lots give them room to stage, add parking on minimal cost and if all goes good an opportunity to build out as their proposal highlights.  
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