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PostAug 12, 2013#151

stlhistory wrote:Where we have begun to preserve more, we have seen rebirth (Washington Avenue, Central West End, Lafayette Square, Soulard).
In these areas, the buildings that are being preserved are just flat out more beautiful.

Maybe its just my personal taste, but I really like the 917 Locust building (the potential hotel) and hope to see it functional sooner rather than later. 921 and 923 currently look like eyesores. I have to admit I don't know what 923 would look like if someone stripped the Tudor styling off and redid it, and that 921 would look a lot better without that ugly black facade (which could be easily replaced). 917 just has a lot more potential with the buildings to either side of it gone. If the 917 developers built a two-story lobby/atrium farther out into the 921/3 lots (instead of a circular driveway), it wouldn't take that much away from the urban feel of the block. They could even put something like a pool on the roof of the atrium, or put a restaurant on the second floor, etc.

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PostAug 12, 2013#152

jsbru wrote:917 just has a lot more potential with the buildings to either side of it gone.
The problem is that downtown as a whole, and any urban environment, has a lot less potential when each building is an island surrounded by parking and driveways. Is 923 itself a major contribution to downtown's built environment? No. But if we consistently sacrifice smaller two and three story in-fill buildings to parking and driveways a major part of downtown's urban fabric will be destroyed.

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PostAug 12, 2013#153

A renovated corner building could look very much like this:


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PostAug 12, 2013#154

Check out the Stag Beer sign - awesome.

Exposing the windows and storefronts on the 10th Street side would really make a huge difference. Great little building. 921 would also look fantastic renovated and lit up at night.

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PostAug 12, 2013#155

So what are the options for drop off/loading unloading for the hotel if the buildings stay?

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PostAug 12, 2013#156

A new 156-room boutique hotel in downtown Cincinnati gets by just fine with curbside pick-up and drop-off:

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PostAug 12, 2013#157

moorlander wrote:So what are the options for drop off/loading unloading for the hotel if the buildings stay?
Sacrifice a few parking spots along Locust for a drop-off lane. I believe that's what the Hilton on 4th Street has.

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PostAug 12, 2013#158

wabash wrote:
jsbru wrote:917 just has a lot more potential with the buildings to either side of it gone.
The problem is that downtown as a whole, and any urban environment, has a lot less potential when each building is an island surrounded by parking and driveways. Is 923 itself a major contribution to downtown's built environment? No. But if we consistently sacrifice smaller two and three story in-fill buildings to parking and driveways a major part of downtown's urban fabric will be destroyed.
Exactly. The mentality that adjacent parking must accompany any new development downtown only guarantees that the sidewalks will remain dull and desolate, and such practices have failed downtown St. Louis. As others have pointed out, our most successful neighborhoods are the ones that have NOT torn down buildings to accommodate automobiles. It's not about the history or the architecture of the buildings-- it's about being taken seriously as a city and maintaining urban density and walkability. Dynamic cities don't pull this crap, because they understand that they are not the suburbs. It's embarrassing that people actually think tearing historic buildings in the year 2013 will actually help St. Louis thrive. Without our built environment, St. Louis has NOTHING over anyplace else. Period.

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PostAug 12, 2013#159

debaliviere wrote:
moorlander wrote:So what are the options for drop off/loading unloading for the hotel if the buildings stay?
Sacrifice a few parking spots along Locust for a drop-off lane. I believe that's what the Hilton on 4th Street has.

Exactly. Hotels manage fine with this setup in urban areas throughout the country. That's why the need to remove the buildings is so puzzling.

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PostAug 12, 2013#160

moorlander wrote:
debaliviere wrote:
moorlander wrote:So what are the options for drop off/loading unloading for the hotel if the buildings stay?
Sacrifice a few parking spots along Locust for a drop-off lane. I believe that's what the Hilton on 4th Street has.

Exactly. Hotels manage fine with this setup in urban areas throughout the country. That's why the need to remove the buildings is so puzzling.
And really, how busy will a relatively small boutique hotel get?

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PostAug 12, 2013#161

And jsbru, I think I can safely speak for many here when I state that what you're seeing isn't a preserve-at-all-costs mentality. Were the current owners proposing to replace 921 and 923 with two new buildings (or one larger one) of urban mass and scale, the cries to save these buildings would be far fewer. The main issue in my eyes is the replacement; it's not appropriate for a downtown, and it's not necessary for the function of their proposed business. It's not better than what's there currently, even in the two buildings' current conditions.

It'd be far better for the vitality of the neighborhood to mothball these buildings appropriately until they can be reused or replaced with something better.

-RBB

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PostAug 12, 2013#162

Alex Ihnen wrote:A renovated corner building could look very much like this:

If they could actually get it to look like that again, I'd be all for renovating it. Maybe it's possible, but it seems like it would be a very costly rehab.

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PostAug 13, 2013#163

They can make anything happen with that building if they really want to.

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PostAug 13, 2013#164

stlgasm wrote:Without our built environment, St. Louis has NOTHING over anyplace else. Period.
Amen. Exactly. Those of us that truly get St. Louis realize that. Unfortunately there aren't many people that truly get St. Louis among the decision makers in our city.

You can drive to some of the most desolate areas of this city and realize that this place was built to last. I realize that not every building can be saved. But it's also amazing what can be done with a bit of patience and vision. It makes me sick to think of the buildings that have been rescued (especially examples in North St. Louis and Midtown), yet our leaders blithely ignore those best practices and tear down perfectly viable structures because they are so content to settle for less every time a developer comes calling. Or, when the former Treasurer screws us over, like Cupples #7. :roll:

Does anyone know exactly how many units are planned for the SVB Annex Building? It isn't like it's all that large of a building in the first place; clearly this is going to be a small boutique hotel. And I also agree with the point about the lack of a better and higher use in the development proposal. If the developer planned to replace the two endangered structures at Tenth and Locust with something that had proper massing and density, I know I wouldn't be nearly as opposed to the demolition of the existing structures. But it's patently absurd to demolish two sound and savable structures to accommodate a driveway when a simple porte cochere extending out to Locust Street with 2-4 reserved parking spaces ought to get the job done.

The Cincinnati example is good, but there are examples even closer to home. The Embassy Suites in The Laurel (Stix Baer & Fuller) gets by just fine with a simple overhang at the entrance on Seventh Street. And the Hilton in the Merchants Laclede Building at Fourth and Olive streets has a separate lane (the parking lane) separated from through traffic by a couple of bollards. It's not rocket science, but it is a pitiful excuse by the developer and the alderwoman. The developer has a right to ask for tax credits, and the city has a right to demand better.

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PostAug 13, 2013#165

There's this, and the developer's desire to get more windows in the third building. Perhaps as many as four floors with west-facing windows. That's understandable, but in no way justifies the demo of the two corner buildings.

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PostAug 13, 2013#166

Alex Ihnen wrote:There's this, and the developer's desire to get more windows in the third building. Perhaps as many as four floors with west-facing windows. That's understandable, but in no way justifies the demo of the two corner buildings.
That's what I was thinking- I've driven by 917 Locust Street many times and I've seen a lot of it as I've played around with Google Streetview. If I remember correctly, there are at least 4-5 floors on which there would be no views because of the adjacent buildings. It's a legitimate desire of the developer to punch some more holes into the side of 917 to provide more rooms with a view, but it's also a lame excuse to demolish the corner buildings. I'd even be okay with a 1-2 story replacement building that is built all the way to Tenth Street and has a simple porte cochere to accommodate guests that arrive by car. The trouble is, the minute anyone mentions accommodating cars, city leaders are ready to capitulate, knock down some buildings, and lay down some asphalt.

It's all a real shame, but I am beginning to think that we can't expect anything different until we get different people in charge throughout city government. It's like Congress- everyone complains about it regardless of their political affiliation- yet the same good ol' boys get re-elected almost every time. Alderman Ogilvie really impressed me when he called out Cardinals owners for the failure known as Ballpark Village- what's it going to take to find 20+ people to run for office with a similar mindset about urban development?

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PostAug 13, 2013#167

I've wondered whether part of the middle building could be hollowed out to create a light well. You could even have a drive passing through it into the alley. And you could preserve the envelope of the building (and therefore the urban form).

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PostAug 13, 2013#168

The problem we have as pro-urban citizens is that we are constantly relying upon others to save buildings such as these. For example:
downtown2007 wrote:They can make anything happen with that building if they really want to.
Who’s “they”? Are “we” a part of “they”?

Recent postings have made note that market forces are the predominant factor in real estate development, because real estate development is a business. While we pretty much all are in favor of buildings such as these being preserved, redeveloped, and constructively reused, it comes down to finding someone with the money to do so.

A prospective developer must be convinced that there is an economic benefit to rehabbing these properties strong enough to convince them that such a rehab is worth the risks of their capital, and that the values in such preservation-based rehab outweighs the opportunity costs from demolishment in favor of a less-urban design. This would have to tap into civic altruism as part of the convincing, as well as presenting a convincing argument into why such an expensive rehab should be the preferred economic argument for their long-term business plans. And if we don’t have the money to do so ourselves, then we should be presenting these potential developers with the counter-case in favor of preservation and constructive redevelopment.

Present case: It remains possible that all three buildings could be combined into a single development, such as for an hotelier. 917 can act as the main hotel, with rooms all the way up to the top; if demand is strong enough, the top floor of the 917 could be a great penthouse suite. The lobby is based in 917 but extends into 921, with curbside pickup in front of both doors. The upper floors of 921 serve other hotel-related functions, which can include the hotelier’s offices, meeting space, guest gym, computer rooms, a proper dining room, even a swimming pool and deck on the roof. 923 would become the hotel’s bar and restaurant. It already has been gutted to serve as one, and hopefully it still can. Combined, these three buildings could feasibly work together.

What we don’t know is how much such a development would cost.
Related is that we also don’t know the levels of decay in these buildings, and whether or not a rehab like this is cost-feasible.

For years, these properties sat waiting for something to happen while nothing did. During this time, the old developers did nothing because they lost their asses in failed ventures. Same time, no one came up to buy these properties off their hands, not inspired enough to want to buy these buildings out from them to complete some iteration of their plans for a hotel here. Now there’s a new owner who bought these at fire sale prices… but what would make them want to recognize a great design when they’ll likely settle for just a profitable one?

Politicians are of little good here. They’re too weak, indifferent, or ineffective. They speak out of both sides of their mouths, one side wanting to see new business and development however they can, and the other towards cultural values of historic preservation and urban rebirth. They have to be on both sides of the plate here, or else they’ll fear they’re siding too strongly with one over the other. And when they do talk, it’s usually full of bureaucratic nonsense. To save these buildings, we mustn’t rely on the public sector.

What about us? Our main, collective intention is to see these buildings constructively rehabilitated into new, productive use that minimizes demolition while maximizing both a return of business to the investor and the growth of new businesses in Downtown STL…

Therefore: Can someone create a pitch for how these buildings should be viably & reasonably rehabbed into a profitable new business? Can this be done with some understanding of the costs of rehab and a little knowledge of how much restoration must take place? And, can this be done in a way that can convince all parties involved, directly and indirectly, that this approach is the best one for the developer, the City as a government, and the citizenry of STL?

Otherwise, we’re gonna need one of us to step up with a few million dollars to save these buildings.


The Big Or: That a new development comes along that replaces 921 and 923 with buildings better than what are there now. Everyone wins here. And we have no idea if this is an active possibility for the NE corner of 10th and Locust.

PostNov 20, 2013#169

There may be some hope for salvation along the 900 block of Locust...

The P-D earlier had a story on the Mayfair being acquired by the Magnolia Hotel. They purchased the hotel from UrbanStreet, which bought the bulk of the Roberts brothers' holdings Downtown. From the article:
...UrbanStreet Group is putting apartments in what had been the empty Roberts Tower, a failed condo project at 411 North Eighth Street.

The Chicago developer also is working to revive other former Roberts properties downtown. They include vacant buildings the Roberts brothers had hoped to renovate as a Hotel Indigo. UrbanStreet is considering apartments for the buildings, which are in the 900 block of Locust Street.
Source: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... e669a.html

It's not particular about which buildings are to be saved, but there's no word of demo for any of them, either. UrbanStreet is currently working on the old Board of Education Building, which had been lofts and empty retail on the first floor.

Not much detail in the news, but perhaps a reason to keep hope alive.

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PostAug 04, 2014#170

Was passing by today and saw a 'For Sale' sign on this building and the one next to it. Don't remember seeing those before. Hopefully this is good news.

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PostAug 05, 2014#171

imran wrote:Was passing by today and saw a 'For Sale' sign on this building and the one next to it. Don't remember seeing those before. Hopefully this is good news.
I believe those are left over from the Roberts' ownership of those buildings. I'll walk by today to confirm.

PostAug 05, 2014#172

Yep, the signs are from the Roberts days. I called the number just for the heck of it and got a recording.

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PostAug 26, 2014#173

Gone corporate, I agree with you almost all of the time, but I think these two corner buildings can and should be saved. I'm going to do some digging to see what the plans are. Having another "driveway" downtown in this dense area makes me sick; it isn't necessary. A demolition permit should flat out be denied. Let's also remember they sat here for years vacant because they were owned by a developer that didn't do anything with them.

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PostAug 26, 2014#174

jcity wrote:Gone corporate, I agree with you almost all of the time, but I think these two corner buildings can and should be saved. I'm going to do some digging to see what the plans are. Having another "driveway" downtown in this dense area makes me sick; it isn't necessary. A demolition permit should flat out be denied. Let's also remember they sat here for years vacant because they were owned by a developer that didn't do anything with them.
Agreed. I'd like to know what UrbanStreet has in store for this corner. I could support demolition if they changed plans and built something more befitting of the SVB Annex Building and the surroundings, but not a fancy driveway.

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PostAug 26, 2014#175

^ I bet they'd like to know there plans as well.... although the hotel industry is doing rather well downtown, that doesn't seem as attractive as it once was with the additions of the Lennox and Magnolia in the vicinity. I wouldn't be surprised to see they proceed with a residential conversion of at least the most eastern, tallest of the three (917 Locust?) at some point and maybe the middle one. Mothball/neglect the other(s) as they figure out what to do.

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