^ nope to all of that, please.
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There’s a sea of parking within a 5 minute walk of these buildings. I’m sick of hearing about how there isn’t enough parking
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Where did all the employees park previously? Certainly they can lease parking in those garages, right?
Seconded. The Mark Twain is beautiful. Just because poor people use it now doesn’t mean it isn’t worthy of keeping. People down on their luck need places like the Mark Twain anyway.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021^ nope to all of that, please.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know to what the vehicle ramps on the 9th St (ingress) and 10th St (egress) lead? Is there any parking there at all, or is that loading and unloading?
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There were some spaces down there for the executives when HQ was here. I don't have the number available, but maybe a couple dozen.rbb wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021Out of curiosity, does anyone know to what the vehicle ramps on the 9th St (ingress) and 10th St (egress) lead? Is there any parking there at all, or is that loading and unloading?
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The garage on 11th still belongs to ATT and has been retrofitted in the past year for administration by St. Louis Parking It's 95% empty most days. So it's no longer using the ATT keycard system but rather SLP's RFID readers.moorlander wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021Where did all the employees park previously? Certainly they can lease parking in those garages, right?
Respectfully disagree. I find it to be an egregious waste of good real estate.
Somehow, the AT&T workers at the data center manage to park two blocks away in the garage.gone corporate wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021@STLinCHI has the right idea here. The biggest problem for 909 Chestnut is parking. It used to be serviced by the AT&T garage 2 blocks west. However, since AT&T moved out, and since those skybridges were torn down, there's no parking at 909 except for a few underground.
Yes, the underground parking for this would be siginficantly higher and undoubtly have to be subsidized. But one argument I make to those on thread is that cities that have dense built environments for their downtown cores have incorporated underground parking under their parks. People still drive into San Fran, NY and Chicgo. The upfront cost is high but you essentially gain long term infrastructure that doesn't take away from future infill of a surface lot w cheap tilt up garages..dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021That was easy to type out but it’s impossible to make work. Below ground parking runs at about $40,000-50,000 per spot. Why would anyone spend $112,500,000 on 2500 spots (less than half the buildings capacity) + another $100,000,000 to renovate the building when they can build a new tower in its place for $150m with 7 floors of parkingSTLinCHI wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021Build parking below ground in the gateway mall. Serra sculpture easy to move. Finish the City Garden concept on top all the way to Civil Courts Bldg. Parking for 909 and other needs within blocks (Busch, Enterprise, Opera House, Courts & City Hall). City could then sell lot at 14th and Clark and Enterprise garage could be demo'd for Enterprise Center facilities expansion.
As far as your simple cost analysis, I think your way off. Yes, you could get brand new mid rise tower w 7 stories/levels of parking for $150 million (buy tower, close and rehab). However, your getting a fraction of the square footage of leasable space, maybe a third to be generous. So you are actually getting comparable leasable space at $150 million with 909 Chestnut for the price of building three new mid rise towers at $150 million each or $450 million. The economics is getting someone to believe or incentive the initial 1/3 of use (income generations) No different then what is happening for new construction or say CORTEX, so on. So my argument is if 1/3 of 909 Chestnut is residential it is absolutely a game changer to get some affordable housing credits, incentives in the mix because you now get a real chance of securing a buyer, securing rent on that initial investment and real chance to get rest developed or leased whether it be hotel, commercial and some office.
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Wow, 95% empty. If the old AT&T garage remains accessible and mostly empty, then that should be made explicitly available to a redeveloped 909 Chestnut, and of course lessens my interests in building on the footprint of the Mark Twain Hotel. Same time, I remain quite interested (as I'm sure most of us are) in seeing the empty parking lot at the NE corner of Tenth & Pine being redeveloped into something other than a parking lot. Such a redevelopment could certainly further redevelopment of 909 Chestnut.bprop wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021The garage on 11th still belongs to ATT and has been retrofitted in the past year for administration by St. Louis Parking It's 95% empty most days. So it's no longer using the ATT keycard system but rather SLP's RFID readers.moorlander wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021Where did all the employees park previously? Certainly they can lease parking in those garages, right?
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then you must really hate all those empty, unutilized lots (aka "good real estate") in and around DT that have no structures on them, much less attractive historic ones. let's build on those first. people can walk a couple of blocks for parking.
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^On a more broad conversational angle... I believe a significant step that can be done in Downtown is to tear down and fully redevelop the old Famous Barr garage bounded by 6th; 7th; Olive; and Pine, the one right across from the Railroad Exchange and One Metropolitan Square. I say build a new one, taller, that takes up the whole block (no need for that parking lot at the NE corner) while incorporating/preserving/relocating the Italian restaurant on the east side of it and the sliver of a building along 7th and Olive. Build that garage tall and full of spots, like one of the BJC Campus garages, so we don't need more of them built going forward. Put a couple floors of office space on top of it. Have a restaurant and retail arcade on the entire ground floor. Further the demand for 909 Chestnut, as well as the Railroad Exchange Building's redevelopment, while concurrently decreasing demand for the two Chestnut garages so they can eventually be redeveloped into something other than parking garages at the head of the Gateway Mall.
Thanks, do you know or maybe someone else has an idea of arrangement made? Parked a few times there when my wife snagged a ATT parking pass for this garage once upon a time. Of course, with enclosed crossings it was easy for her to park and not have to go outside to her cubicle. I'm assuming ATT still owns as a preference to their employees but can see where converting over and getting a cut of public parking would be a win win for ATT even dollar wise it doesn't collect much.bprop wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021The garage on 11th still belongs to ATT and has been retrofitted in the past year for administration by St. Louis Parking It's 95% empty most days. So it's no longer using the ATT keycard system but rather SLP's RFID readers.moorlander wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021Where did all the employees park previously? Certainly they can lease parking in those garages, right?
Ideally, as GC noted securing the garage and tying it directly to 909 Chestnut would be the way to go but ATT would have to be willing seller and or willing to giveaway x parking spaces over a long term lease. It would be interesting to know if this was entertained indirectly or not. Maybe ATT would see the indirect benefit of having the foot traffic of a tower next door & in their garage as a plus for its own employees wedged between 909 and the parking structure
I asked a friend that work for ATT. They had a parking pass at $50 per month from the company; non employees could never park in the garage. Last year due to covid and so much work from home, they suspended payments, but employees could keep their passes. Then AT&T changed it over to StL Parking for management, and employees who had passes all got the new StLParking style card. The guy who runs the garage said he didn't have any idea what was in the works, if anything, but encouraged all employees who wanted one to get the new pass "while it was free." So it's quite possible that they'll start allowing StL parking to allow some other cars to park there and recoup some of the money it takes to maintain the building. I've been through there and the only entrance from the garage to (edit) 1010 Pine, by the skybridge, requires an AT&T pass and has a guard. I guess the only hesitation would be that the 'public' would be allowed in and it theoretically poses a bigger risk for break-ins and so on. There are also a few company cars and trucks that use the ground level.dredger wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021Thanks, do you know or maybe someone else has an idea of arrangement made? Parked a few times there when my wife snagged a ATT parking pass for this garage once upon a time. Of course, with enclosed crossings it was easy for her to park and not have to go outside to her cubicle. I'm assuming ATT still owns as a preference to their employees but can see where converting over and getting a cut of public parking would be a win win for ATT even dollar wise it doesn't collect much.
Ideally, as GC noted securing the garage and tying it directly to 909 Chestnut would be the way to go but ATT would have to be willing seller and or willing to giveaway x parking spaces over a long term lease. It would be interesting to know if this was entertained indirectly or not. Maybe ATT would see the indirect benefit of having the foot traffic of a tower next door & in their garage as a plus for its own employees wedged between 909 and the parking structure
I do and that's fair. Just in my utopian world I would prefer a City Garden extension over the Mark Twain sculpture site.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021then you must really hate all those empty, unutilized lots (aka "good real estate") in and around DT that have no structures on them, much less attractive historic ones. let's build on those first. people can walk a couple of blocks for parking.robertn42 wrote: ↑Dec 30, 2021Respectfully disagree. I find it to be an egregious waste of good real estate.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2021Seconded. The Mark Twain is beautiful. Just because poor people use it now doesn’t mean it isn’t worthy of keeping. People down on their luck need places like the Mark Twain anyway.
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^ agree with you there. i'm not a fan of the Twain sculpture, either. but GC had originally suggested bulldozing the Mark Twain Hotel, not the Twain sculpture. that gets a big nope from me.
The Mark Twain building is not the same as the Twain sculpture located in the Gateway Mall.
Mark Twain Hotel:
https://www.builtstlouis.net/opos/marktwain.html
Twain Sculpture:
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/parks/parks/ ... cfm?id=480
Mark Twain Hotel:
https://www.builtstlouis.net/opos/marktwain.html
Twain Sculpture:
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/parks/parks/ ... cfm?id=480
Thanks Tim for putting the clarification out there. Familiar with Twain sculpture but didn't realize about the Mark Twain hotel.
I agree with robertn and think it would be a great change to the Mall if City Garden embraced all three blocks and bookend. Give Twain Sculpture a new home on the mall & extend and refresh the City Garden for its 10 yr plan (has to be close). The City Garden turned out great but it came out odd to me that you essentially got a family room/a separate park within the mall but they only used 2/3 of the space as if they were scared to move the sentimental piece of furniture and take down the old painting
I agree with robertn and think it would be a great change to the Mall if City Garden embraced all three blocks and bookend. Give Twain Sculpture a new home on the mall & extend and refresh the City Garden for its 10 yr plan (has to be close). The City Garden turned out great but it came out odd to me that you essentially got a family room/a separate park within the mall but they only used 2/3 of the space as if they were scared to move the sentimental piece of furniture and take down the old painting
At the risk of taking this a little further off topic…GoHarv (Ithink it was Harv) suggested covering Twain in whatever the Bean in Chicago is clad in. I think that would be awesome…and relatively easy compared to rebuilding the whole block. Add in updated landscaping and pavers and suddenly you have a new park with sculpture that’ll instantly draw people in.
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i honestly can't fathom how anyone would advocate for this building to be demolished for any reason—especially for more parking—when DT is flush with vacant lots.
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I’ve heard “intelligent” and “reasonable” people advocated demolishing 909 on the tax payer’s dime. So, yeah, I can believe some would tear down Mark Twain for a parking lot
If you've not seen it, check out The Second Empire Strikes Back's video on The Old Post Office. I bring it up here because he includes archival footage talking about whether to tear it down or not, including a strong (and rather infuriating) proponent of its demolition. To me it was a great insight into the mindset in the mid-20th century about tearing down 'Victorian' structures that were seen as outdated.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 31, 2021I’ve heard “intelligent” and “reasonable” people advocated demolishing 909 on the tax payer’s dime. So, yeah, I can believe some would tear down Mark Twain for a parking lot
This can also shed light current viewpoints that advocate for demolition, and possibly could help us to learn from past mistakes (or near-mistakes, as is the case for the OPO).
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@urban_dilettante Understand me, sir: I'm not seeking the Mark Twain Hotel's destruction. I am seeking 909 Chestnut being put back into productive use as an office building occupied with businesses. To get that building back in productive use, I believe we first need parking proximate to that building because it doesn't have any on site, and solutions to getting this accomplished should be addressed.
Right off the bat, I say the parking lot behind the Mark Twain can and should be bought by the 909 Chestnut owners, who should look to building a garage on that site to better attract future tenants. Concurrently, they should get access to the building's former garage a couple blocks up (the AT&T garage). If there's space available there, then they should make having access to those spaces part of their marketing. I have no desire to see the Mark Twain Hotel lost, but I do believe having 909 Chestnut fully occupied is worth more than the Mark Twain Hotel, especially in its current use. I honestly think the best solution would have been to have new parking constructed under the City Garden, but I believe that opportunity has passed. Could new underground parking be reasonably built under the Serra Sculpture? Not sure, but that'd be a damn attractive thing to get that building back in productive use.
Right off the bat, I say the parking lot behind the Mark Twain can and should be bought by the 909 Chestnut owners, who should look to building a garage on that site to better attract future tenants. Concurrently, they should get access to the building's former garage a couple blocks up (the AT&T garage). If there's space available there, then they should make having access to those spaces part of their marketing. I have no desire to see the Mark Twain Hotel lost, but I do believe having 909 Chestnut fully occupied is worth more than the Mark Twain Hotel, especially in its current use. I honestly think the best solution would have been to have new parking constructed under the City Garden, but I believe that opportunity has passed. Could new underground parking be reasonably built under the Serra Sculpture? Not sure, but that'd be a damn attractive thing to get that building back in productive use.