PostAug 05, 2019#176
So... what could this mean? Maybe Metro is planning to move the Union Station stop to this side because of the future MLS?
^ No idea. Apparently, that property has been in the same family for a long time. There were three demolition permits issued for the property recently, for $38k worth of work. The cost seems low, but it is only one story. Maybe the building is gone?
Anyway, history is fun. From the Post-Dispatch, Feb 16, 1964:
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Full page link - newspapers.com
Anyway, history is fun. From the Post-Dispatch, Feb 16, 1964:
Full page link - newspapers.com
Ha, stlnative answered my question a month ago...the building just south of the Drury parking garage is no more.stlnative wrote: Was in the area with the quad so I sent it up for some quick snaps. Also new signage on the south side of the shed.
(apologies for the image quality, forgot I had some weird camera settings on before taking)
Moving the stop two blocks closer for 17 games a year would be incredibly stupid. I cannot overstate how ridiculous that would be.
That would move the stop farther from residents, businesses and attractions, farther from the more urban part of downtown west for the benefit of 17 freaking soccer games in which a minority of soccer fans would save two blocks of walking.
Maybe it'd be a worthwhile discussion at some point decades down the road when the area around and to the west of there is more than just parking lots.
Related: Anyone know what they're doing with that dirt movement that's closed the east end of the Union Station Metrolink?
That would move the stop farther from residents, businesses and attractions, farther from the more urban part of downtown west for the benefit of 17 freaking soccer games in which a minority of soccer fans would save two blocks of walking.
Maybe it'd be a worthwhile discussion at some point decades down the road when the area around and to the west of there is more than just parking lots.
Related: Anyone know what they're doing with that dirt movement that's closed the east end of the Union Station Metrolink?
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The current Union Station stop is already extremely close to the Civic Center stop. By moving it a couple blocks west each stop serves its own territory instead of the current redundancy.
You’re not wrong. It’s just a case of “is it worth $10+ million” the answer is no. As a frequent rider, I’d be pretty upset if Bi-State spent $ to relocate a station 200 feet. They’re redesigning 5 stations right now, none of them have funding.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:The current Union Station stop is already extremely close to the Civic Center stop. By moving it a couple blocks west each stop serves its own territory instead of the current redundancy.
I only see this happening if it’s almost entirely private financing. Which again isn’t impossible, but I think Taylors or LHM would be asking themselves the same thing... is this worth $10m?
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^ Yep. Instead of rebuilding the station entirely, a simple platform extension with a stair and/or elevator to provide access to the center of the station (and thus closer to the east end of the MLS stadium) would make much more sense. I really can't see Metro moving or rebuilding that station.
That territory is largely nothing, though. What does that move it closer to? The Drury Hotel and the soccer stadiumGoHarvOrGoHome wrote: The current Union Station stop is already extremely close to the Civic Center stop. By moving it a couple blocks west each stop serves its own territory instead of the current redundancy.
It moves farther from quite a bit of residential and businesses.
If the soon-to-be-removed I-64 exit and all that suburban-style development to the west is replaced with high-rises, then maybe there's a case for it.
^ You could argue that the quite of bit of residential and businesses believe you are referring to is already well served by the four other metrolink stations before you cross the Eads Bridge when coming west to east. So moving the station at Union Station stop further west doesn't impact much in my opinion. Especially on a transit system that is far from being over utilized.
The discussion goes back to other discussions, is it worth the move and therefore does it really help west downtown? Personally, I think their is some value in flipping the station to the other side of Union Station as it relates to MLS stadium and future west downtown development. However, as a few pointed out. The reality is you only need to walk the a couple extra minutes through Union Station. I can't dispute or deny that.
I think the perception and visual representation of MLS and future development being in West Downtown is Union Station itself. Therefore, flipping the station to the other side of Union Station gives riders an impression that their are making a stop in West Downtown. Will it be enough to convince a few more commuters and soccer fans onto metrolink to have a meaningful impact for the expense of rebuilding the station? Not a clue and certainly don't know what it would take to come with a reasonable study to articulate an impact. Do I think realignment of metrolink through west downtown as subway and means to have a Jeff Ave station worth the cost? I think it is an intriguing idea but that idea is decades away, if and only if you can significant density to happen. So the relative cheap option is flip the station.
The discussion goes back to other discussions, is it worth the move and therefore does it really help west downtown? Personally, I think their is some value in flipping the station to the other side of Union Station as it relates to MLS stadium and future west downtown development. However, as a few pointed out. The reality is you only need to walk the a couple extra minutes through Union Station. I can't dispute or deny that.
I think the perception and visual representation of MLS and future development being in West Downtown is Union Station itself. Therefore, flipping the station to the other side of Union Station gives riders an impression that their are making a stop in West Downtown. Will it be enough to convince a few more commuters and soccer fans onto metrolink to have a meaningful impact for the expense of rebuilding the station? Not a clue and certainly don't know what it would take to come with a reasonable study to articulate an impact. Do I think realignment of metrolink through west downtown as subway and means to have a Jeff Ave station worth the cost? I think it is an intriguing idea but that idea is decades away, if and only if you can significant density to happen. So the relative cheap option is flip the station.
I think maybe that lot purchased by Bi-State has something to do with the Scott-Clark bike trail connector, in conjunction with a corral or a bike dock for the bike share system they have been talking about for a few years. I really can't imagine what else they would do with it, other than a 20th Street bus turnaround / waiting area, or some kind of downtown area park-and-ride lot. Or maybe all of the above?
I suppose it depends on what an ideal walkable distance from a residence to transit is. I'd always assumed a quarter mile. We already have a buffer of gov't buildings/gateway mall from that part of Metrolink's alignment to the nearest housing to dull the impact of Metrolink.dredger wrote: ^ You could argue that the quite of bit of residential and businesses believe you are referring to is already well served by the four other metrolink stations before you cross the Eads Bridge when coming west to east. So moving the station at Union Station stop further west doesn't impact much in my opinion. Especially on a transit system that is far from being over utilized.
A move two blocks west moves Union Station Metrolink out of the quarter-mile range of the Plaza Square buildings (maybe three are within 1/4 mile now) while adding only the newish apartments at 1900 Pine as an additional residential building within 1/4 mile.
There's almost nothing that gets markedly improved Metro access with that move. I walk those DT west areas all the time, and I'm surprised when I see a non-homeless pedestrian west of 18th and north of Market.
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^As for what's there right now, sure. But if you move the station to about 20th and Clark it puts 2 (soon to be 3) hotels and the soccer stadium within a little more than a quarter mile radius of the new location.
^ None of you are wrong. But it doesn't make any sense to use what scarce transit dollars the region has to be moving stations a few hundred feet one way or the other, or especially moving entire lines and building tunnels as others have suggested. In the extremely unlikely event that a significant chunk of private money were made available for it, then sure. But right now the focus needs to be on expanding the system into the areas of the city where transit is needed. Shaving a few minutes off the walk to a Ferris wheel or an MLS stadium should be the absolute last priority.
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Quoting just to bump this.aprice wrote: oh good god. the metrolink station is not moving, people
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^did you just say that to keep me from bringing it up again.Do I think realignment of metrolink through west downtown as subway and means to have a Jeff Ave station worth the cost? I think it is an intriguing idea but that idea is decades away, if and only if you can significant density to happen. So the relative cheap option is flip the station.
I should start a list of expensive 'adjustments' to put things where they should have been built in the first place, which are nearly impossible to justify in terms of ROI not to mention the property rights issues and impacts to local businesses. Move Union Station Metrolink station under the shed has to be one of my favorites.
The Union station link stop is too close to the Civic center stop to be "ideal" but i do understand why they built it the way they did. It was all about cost and I respect that even as i wish i could retroactively undo it.
I still think the U.S Metrolink Station belongs (and always belonged) under the shed simply because i think a tourist from out of town should be awestruck by the sprawling steel girder network and massive roof of the shed the moment they step out of the elevator. Its more about that experience to me, and that is a hard thing to quantify. Its a Steve Jobs sort of take on civic transit. Sometimes its more than just the utility. I feel like it mass transit should feel like you were dropped in the middle of something instead of feeling like you were dropped off pretty close to something. I think the Laclede Landing, Convention Center, 8th&Pine, and Ballpark stops do that pretty well. I think Union Station could do it well if it was moved under the shed. That distinction is worth something. (Maybe worth 20 million dollars, depends on how many passengers) At what point the value proposition tips far enough to justify i don't know.
I also think that Bi-State needs to have a picture of what could be in their mind's eye. The FBI facility and the light industrial retail uses along Clark are almost ripe for redevelopment. WellsFargo is a major employer and MSD is a institution that is going to be around for a long time, oh yeah and MLS stadium too. Serving that worker pool, tourists and spurring redevelopment of that stretch has to be in their medium to long view projections. What that looks like and how metrolink interacts with it should be subject of study right now. Especially with the stadium spurring big changes and new construction in the area, new construction tends to lock in land uses for 30-50 years. Metrolink should be thinking about how they are going to interact with the area for the next 50 years and making real estate moves to secure that future.
^ There are endless things $1m could do to turn a ditch with light rail in it into one of the coolest places in Downtown.
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^I would tend to disagree, some things are just driven by the structural realities of the built environment. Sometimes you adapt to those realities and sometimes you change the built environment. Its all a value proposition with esoteric non-quantifiable inputs. In the end the heart wants what it wants.
BTW I just said 20m because i thought the Cortex station was around 15m and i figured going under the shed would cost more. I don't think it matters much for this discussion since we all agree it would cost a lot of money and the justification is nearly impossible to quantify.
Honestly I would not really expect them to do it right now but i think that its worth discussing because at some point i think it becomes worth doing.
BTW I just said 20m because i thought the Cortex station was around 15m and i figured going under the shed would cost more. I don't think it matters much for this discussion since we all agree it would cost a lot of money and the justification is nearly impossible to quantify.
Honestly I would not really expect them to do it right now but i think that its worth discussing because at some point i think it becomes worth doing.
5 if you count the pear tree and the courtyard. It seems like it would be at least as good as what is there now. Not that that is really gonna flip any opinions.^As for what's there right now, sure. But if you move the station to about 20th and Clark it puts 2 (soon to be 3) hotels and the soccer stadium within a little more than a quarter mile radius of the new location.
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^To be clear, I was counting Pear Tree and Courtyard as the two that would be added if the station moved. Drury and Union Station Hilton hotels are within the radius either way.
I'm surprised more has not been made of this, but I guess they are waiting for the grand opening of all the attractions before the big press and marketing campaign:
St. Louis Union Station - 125th Anniversary
St. Louis Union Station - 125th Anniversary
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I will throw tantrum if 18th Street isn’t repaved when construction is done and if that side of the shed steel wasn’t repainted
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What are the plans for that old Wehrenberg movie theater under the highway? Did that get torn down or is it still around? Is it going to be converted into something like office space?