dweebe wrote:Just a stream of thoughts after staying up all night with a sick child. Hope this works for you.
I lived in Soulard back then. Hard to believe that Soulard was considered a "good" neighborhood at the time. The Darst-Webbe projects really put a damper on the area. You can still see traces of how the neighborhood used to be viewed by the bars still on the windows at Carson's and recently removed from Cat's Meow. My pretty decent car was broken in to twice and flat out stolen twice. After that I got a piece-of-crud pickup truck with a stick shift.
Jeez that is nowhere near recognizable today. I forgot about Darst-Webbe and the other housing projects (except Pruitt Igoe), I imagine it would of been like seeing something off of The Warriors. How often did did nightly news talked about those places?? and what kind of stories came from them? How did they also effected the surrounding areas.
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You should really be reading StL history books. You cannot possibly begin to understand 1985-199 StL without a solid understanding of what preceded it.i,Iive,to,draw wrote:I often found details, articles, stories and, many sites of photographs on various cities in rougher periods (like NYC in the late 70'sand early 80's as an example) but i can't really find anything about St Louis, since I was only in first grade at the end of the1990's. I was wondering if any one else has anything to say about their experiences in the late 80's and and 90's about St Louis.
The things Im interested are.
1. What was the economy of the city and region like? I imagined it was mediocre to bad. I would also Like to know what downtown was like, and what good about it then and what was bad about it. and just what was it like before downtown was seen as a residential area. I remember when I was little and my dad would pick up my mom from Boatman's I remember seeing all the cupples buildings boarded up and covered with old rusty fire escapes. I also remember the new court house being built and I looked forward to how tall it was getting every time i saw it.
2. What where the neighborhoods like , especially Soulard, CWE, Shaw, Lafayette square and the Cherokee street area. I want to know things like how much of those areas where vacant, how vibrant where they back then. and how had much they changed since then. I also imagine more crime in the city as a whole and i imagined more of the north-side's built environment intact, but with high crime rates and a huge gang problem.
3. What where the city Politics Per-slay was like. Was there more dysfunction, alderman fighting each other where racial tensions higher?? and and other stories of city politics at the time? Also what was the city and county relationship like then? and was there more animosity then?
Here is one of the StL History Books Thread
http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1896
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^ The cool thing about history is that it forces you to ponder what preceding times were like. What really is hard to imagine is a time when there was something called the middle class in Saint Louis and the USA. There were lots of well-paying jobs to be had on the line and you could send your kids to college and they could get a decent job and without the burden of huge debt.
They certainly had an effect on the area. I know people that would not drive Choteau, Tucker, 14th Street etc because it took you past "The Projects". I worked with a guy who used to live in Darst-Webbe and he claimed they'd sit out when Cardinal games ended to yell and taunt the people driving by who were trying to get to 55 and 44.i,Iive,to,draw wrote:Jeez that is nowhere near recognizable today. I forgot about Darst-Webbe and the other housing projects (except Pruitt Igoe), I imagine it would of been like seeing something off of The Warriors. How often did did nightly news talked about those places?? and what kind of stories came from them? How did they also effected the surrounding areas.
It certainly had it's effects on Lafayette Square, La Salle Park and Soulard: both in real crime and negative perceptions.
Before women *had* to enter the workforce in the '70s to maintain the same standard of living a single earner used to provide. Before unionbusting in the '80s and free trade in the '90s destroyed high paying blue collar jobs and shuttered whole towns where things were made all across the country, and set huge numbers of people on a downward spiral of increasing debt, decreasing pay, decreasing benefits, and long stints of unemployment. Before these problems were masked by using credit cards, student loans, and home equity to maintain the standard of living. All of which we are now finally coming to grips with.^ The cool thing about history is that it forces you to ponder what preceding times were like. What really is hard to imagine is a time when there was something called the middle class in Saint Louis and the USA. There were lots of well-paying jobs to be had on the line and you could send your kids to college and they could get a decent job and without the burden of huge debt.
There were strip clubs on DeBaliviere and a XXX drive-in in north county.Anglophile wrote:I'm really curious to know what St. Louis was like in the 70s. I doubt many people on here have direct memories of it, but it just seems like such a sh*tty/sleazy era that it's really interesting to me. It was also the decade that the City lost the greatest portion of its population.
There's a story about the old DeBaliviere in the Times of SD see Page 7
http://sdtimes.org/files/Download/CurrIssue.pdf
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Doing research I came across an article in the PD archives (no link) from Sept. 1994 titled "View of the Room, Loft Living Offers Enchanted Space"
One quote: "No one knows just how many live along Washington, but most guess it's fewer than 100."
It also listed Downtown apartment properties (total of 12), a few of which are not in the core (think Columbus Square and O'Fallon Place). Seven were in the core of Downtown: Mansion House, Gentry's Landing, Jefferson Arms, Plaza Square, Lucas Lofts, Ford Apartments, and Railton Hotel. I think at the time both Ford and Railton were SRO hotels so not even really apartments.
These 7 properties combined for a total of 2,700 units with 73 percent occupancy.
The article listed 5 proposed developments along Washington with 55 condos (starting at $150,000), and 94 apartments (rents $400 to $600).
The article also quotes Downtown employment numbers at 93,000.
One quote: "No one knows just how many live along Washington, but most guess it's fewer than 100."
It also listed Downtown apartment properties (total of 12), a few of which are not in the core (think Columbus Square and O'Fallon Place). Seven were in the core of Downtown: Mansion House, Gentry's Landing, Jefferson Arms, Plaza Square, Lucas Lofts, Ford Apartments, and Railton Hotel. I think at the time both Ford and Railton were SRO hotels so not even really apartments.
These 7 properties combined for a total of 2,700 units with 73 percent occupancy.
The article listed 5 proposed developments along Washington with 55 condos (starting at $150,000), and 94 apartments (rents $400 to $600).
The article also quotes Downtown employment numbers at 93,000.
Wasn't it somewhere along Page? I'd heard a story there were train tracks that ran along the back side of the XXX drive-in and the trains would slow down to a near crawl as they drove by during showings.quincunx wrote:There were strip clubs on DeBaliviere and a XXX drive-in in north county.Anglophile wrote:I'm really curious to know what St. Louis was like in the 70s. I doubt many people on here have direct memories of it, but it just seems like such a sh*tty/sleazy era that it's really interesting to me. It was also the decade that the City lost the greatest portion of its population.
I wrote the following in another topic - There is probably - not exaggerating - 5 times as much after 6 pm street activity now downtown vs the mid 90's - offset by probably about half of the daytime activity - Like I said whole group of college friends not from St. Louis came to town in summer 95 - Downtown was awful dead - it was embarrassing, though we did spend a great Saturday in the Loop which they liked - at that time the Loop you would hang out ended abruptly a block west of Skinker, no Pageant (which was an empty lot) no Tivoli - which was mostly boarded up - but it still had a bit of its 80's edge, bands in Cicero's basement and the Red Sea
I understand that you are probably young, so you really don't know - Anyone who says downtown is dead and on the decline has no clue as to how far it has come - in the mid 90's the entire area west of Tucker and north of Locust was just about completely void of activity.
I had friends visit in 95 right out of college and wanted to see Washington Ave during the day after a night of hanging out at 1227 (or what ever name it was then) - at 2:00 pm on a Saturday on a Cardinal game day we were the only ones on a street of mostly boarded up buildings - these people were from all over the Midwest, who were amazed at how dead it was, I was embarrassed for St. Louis that day.
At that time there were more jobs downtown on weekdays so at lunch there was more street activity on Olive, but Olive was a ghost town after 6 because there was no residential at all except for Mansion House - which was all the way east and the residents had no reason to walk around downtown, except for Walgreens in the Century building and some light activity outside of St Louis center downtown was devoid of pedestrians after 6.
As late as 2000, when I was working downtown, if you worked late and wanted a cheap meal you had to go to the Wendy's in the Kiener garage and had to get there before 6 pm when they closed or else you were getting Charlie Gitto's - and that was it if you did not want to spend more than $10.00 for dinner
We have come a long way - things have gotten better - things will get better - we are dealing with a decades time table not a years
I understand that you are probably young, so you really don't know - Anyone who says downtown is dead and on the decline has no clue as to how far it has come - in the mid 90's the entire area west of Tucker and north of Locust was just about completely void of activity.
I had friends visit in 95 right out of college and wanted to see Washington Ave during the day after a night of hanging out at 1227 (or what ever name it was then) - at 2:00 pm on a Saturday on a Cardinal game day we were the only ones on a street of mostly boarded up buildings - these people were from all over the Midwest, who were amazed at how dead it was, I was embarrassed for St. Louis that day.
At that time there were more jobs downtown on weekdays so at lunch there was more street activity on Olive, but Olive was a ghost town after 6 because there was no residential at all except for Mansion House - which was all the way east and the residents had no reason to walk around downtown, except for Walgreens in the Century building and some light activity outside of St Louis center downtown was devoid of pedestrians after 6.
As late as 2000, when I was working downtown, if you worked late and wanted a cheap meal you had to go to the Wendy's in the Kiener garage and had to get there before 6 pm when they closed or else you were getting Charlie Gitto's - and that was it if you did not want to spend more than $10.00 for dinner
We have come a long way - things have gotten better - things will get better - we are dealing with a decades time table not a years
I bought a shell in Soulard in 1982. Was the second inhabited house on the block. Three burglaries in the first three years. Sirens blaring to no one. Policeman who said I was crazy for living there. Went downtown to eat late night at Marshall's Deli in the Mansion house. Mansion House was the only decent DT living choice at the time, but was sought after. I was part of the first wave of clubs on Washington in the late 80's. 1227 and Twist across the street @1224. All the buildings from 8th street west to 18th street were vacant above floor one. Over half of the first floor spaces we're vacant and rent could be had from $2 sq/ft. The first Wash Ave residents were all part of the club scene and consisted largely of artists. Lofts were rudimentary. We had to go elsewhere to rollerblade because the sidewalks were so bad. The Mossa building was the only "done right" adaptive reuse. Renegade Raves were held in many buildings up and down the street. The first one was at the two-story, block-long building that Rothschild rehabbed a few years ago (21st street I think). These Rave parties exposed the street to a group of progressive youth. I'm sure many of them live there today, although under much different circumstances. I worked at Velvet for the first five years they were open. That building, on the NW corner of 13th & Washington was the first that rehabbed into modern loft-style offices. I moved my company there from Laclede's Landing (which had the only other loft offices DT) in 1990. Early residential conversions happened first @ artist lofts on 17th, then right on the intersection of 13th & Washington, with the building on the SW corner first. Then the building on SE corner. Sorry...not hip to the building names. Overall, the city was different. As mentioned, the near south neighborhoods were split up by the projects, but rehabs were always happening. Soulard exploded, with dozens of homes under renovation at any one time. Regan pulled the national historic rehab credits, and everything came to a hault, both in Soulard and on Wash Ave. That legislation alone set things back 20 years. While I was always a proponent of the city, I personally felt things were moving backwards and dragging me down with them. I bailed to Chicago. Wash Ave has certainly changed. I only wonder what 1st floor spaces rent for today...
^STLinCHI thank you for that. I really enjoyed reading your 1st person experience. I graduated high school in '95 so my experience with downtown in that era was limited to the late '90s which was comprised of going to clubs, looking for cheap Starter jackets at Gus's and working as a valet at the Adam's Mark. I left in 2000 but bought a loft down there when I moved back in 2006 and loved it (stayed 7 years). My downtown living experience was made possible by people like you pioneering it in the previous decades.
Not to send the topic spinning off: but yes, the Delmar Loop has changed by leaps and bounds.beer city wrote:I wrote the following in another topic - There is probably - not exaggerating - 5 times as much after 6 pm street activity now downtown vs the mid 90's - offset by probably about half of the daytime activity - Like I said whole group of college friends not from St. Louis came to town in summer 95 - Downtown was awful dead - it was embarrassing, though we did spend a great Saturday in the Loop which they liked - at that time the Loop you would hang out ended abruptly a block west of Skinker, no Pageant (which was an empty lot) no Tivoli - which was mostly boarded up - but it still had a bit of its 80's edge, bands in Cicero's basement and the Red Sea
-The area north of Delmar was not good as Wash U. was just starting to invest in the apartments.
-my first legal drink was at Blueberry Hill. Even then Joe Edwards' people carded hard (as they still do). We arrived at 11:45pm on the eve of my 21st birthday and the doorman made me wait until 12:01am to go inside. Back then BH was about 1/3rd the size it is now.
-I remember going to see the midnight showings of the "Rocky Horror Picture Show" at the old Varsity theater while in high school.
The only real activity at 11pm on a Saturday was at the Varsity. The rest of the strip was pretty dead.
-The only exception was if there was a good show at the old Cicero's. A friend swears up and down he saw 10,000 Maniacs play the Cicero's basement before they got big.
I want to say 1227 was closed by '92 or 93. That's when The Galaxy took the spot over.beer city wrote:I had friends visit in 95 right out of college and wanted to see Washington Ave during the day after a night of hanging out at 1227 (or what ever name it was then) - at 2:00 pm on a Saturday on a Cardinal game day we were the only ones on a street of mostly boarded up buildings - these people were from all over the Midwest, who were amazed at how dead it was, I was embarrassed for St. Louis that day.
I still remember one night some friends and I partied hard at 1227. We ended up across the river and walking out of The Oz as the sun rose. Got dropped off at my place in Soulard, slept for a few hours and rode my bike back to Washington Ave to get my truck. I guessed I had a 50/50 chance the truck was gone, but it was there and untouched. Even though there was a Cardinal game going on blocks away, it was a complete and utter wasteland along Washington Ave.
It's kind of still that way. Though I think Hardees is now open until 9pm during spring/summer/fall.beer city wrote:
As late as 2000, when I was working downtown, if you worked late and wanted a cheap meal you had to go to the Wendy's in the Kiener garage and had to get there before 6 pm when they closed or else you were getting Charlie Gitto's - and that was it if you did not want to spend more than $10.00 for dinner
I want to say 1227 was closed by '92 or 93. That's when The Galaxy took the spot over.
Close Dweebe...1227 did close in '92. It was followed by Evolution, which lasted until '95, when Galaxy opened. Of the three, Evolution was actually my favorite...you might remember the huge rotating world map over the bar and the two dragon heads on the dance floor which spit out smoke. Evolution was a great concept. The whole place was painted with white screen paint and projections covered every square inch. It would change every week (hence the name...Evolution). One week it would be all stained glass. The next week it would be a winter wonderland (in the middle of July). Very cool place.
Close Dweebe...1227 did close in '92. It was followed by Evolution, which lasted until '95, when Galaxy opened. Of the three, Evolution was actually my favorite...you might remember the huge rotating world map over the bar and the two dragon heads on the dance floor which spit out smoke. Evolution was a great concept. The whole place was painted with white screen paint and projections covered every square inch. It would change every week (hence the name...Evolution). One week it would be all stained glass. The next week it would be a winter wonderland (in the middle of July). Very cool place.
I remember a basement (vaguely) that was all chain link and techno - almost like a different scene from up stairs - And wasn't also called "The Mill" for a short period of time?STLinCHI wrote:I want to say 1227 was closed by '92 or 93. That's when The Galaxy took the spot over.
Close Dweebe...1227 did close in '92. It was followed by Evolution, which lasted until '95, when Galaxy opened. Of the three, Evolution was actually my favorite...you might remember the huge rotating world map over the bar and the two dragon heads on the dance floor which spit out smoke. Evolution was a great concept. The whole place was painted with white screen paint and projections covered every square inch. It would change every week (hence the name...Evolution). One week it would be all stained glass. The next week it would be a winter wonderland (in the middle of July). Very cool place.
They heyday also brings back memories of Other World (saw Black Francis and Dee Lite there, not on the same bill
)Good article from 2001.beer city wrote:I remember a basement (vaguely) that was all chain link and techno - almost like a different scene from up stairs - And wasn't also called "The Mill" for a short period of time?STLinCHI wrote:I want to say 1227 was closed by '92 or 93. That's when The Galaxy took the spot over.
Close Dweebe...1227 did close in '92. It was followed by Evolution, which lasted until '95, when Galaxy opened. Of the three, Evolution was actually my favorite...you might remember the huge rotating world map over the bar and the two dragon heads on the dance floor which spit out smoke. Evolution was a great concept. The whole place was painted with white screen paint and projections covered every square inch. It would change every week (hence the name...Evolution). One week it would be all stained glass. The next week it would be a winter wonderland (in the middle of July). Very cool place.
They heyday also brings back memories of Other World (saw Black Francis and Dee Lite there, not on the same bill
http://unewsonline.com/2001/02/28/stlou ... livemusic/
You are right, it was The Mill for a second. I think after Galaxy. Nice article dweebe. I worked at the Otherworld and Karma right before I left town. Good times. Jojo, the owner moved out of town about the same time I did. Heard he is back now and running a new bar at 20th & Locust... the old Rocket Bar. Not sure of the new name.
I would kill to have the old Rocket Bar back.STLinCHI wrote:You are right, it was The Mill for a second. I think after Galaxy. Nice article dweebe. I worked at the Otherworld and Karma right before I left town. Good times. Jojo, the owner moved out of town about the same time I did. Heard he is back now and running a new bar at 20th & Locust... the old Rocket Bar. Not sure of the new name.
Rumor has it the new place will be a gay friendly dance club.
If anyone is "really" interested, I have a box of SWOT, demographic, business cluster analysis, market research, and land use plans that I had commissioned starting in the late 80's that serve as a baseline and guiding strategy for the creation of Park Central and Cortex.
Great article - forgot about a lot of those places like the Firehouse - is it still a dance club?dweebe wrote:Good article from 2001.beer city wrote:I remember a basement (vaguely) that was all chain link and techno - almost like a different scene from up stairs - And wasn't also called "The Mill" for a short period of time?STLinCHI wrote:I want to say 1227 was closed by '92 or 93. That's when The Galaxy took the spot over.
Close Dweebe...1227 did close in '92. It was followed by Evolution, which lasted until '95, when Galaxy opened. Of the three, Evolution was actually my favorite...you might remember the huge rotating world map over the bar and the two dragon heads on the dance floor which spit out smoke. Evolution was a great concept. The whole place was painted with white screen paint and projections covered every square inch. It would change every week (hence the name...Evolution). One week it would be all stained glass. The next week it would be a winter wonderland (in the middle of July). Very cool place.
They heyday also brings back memories of Other World (saw Black Francis and Dee Lite there, not on the same bill
http://unewsonline.com/2001/02/28/stlou ... livemusic/
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In terms of restaurant spots, has anyone been to Calecos? It seems to have been around for some time yet its one of those places that doesn't seem to have any real buzz about it. I do see that they are open for breakfast on weekends. When I lived downtown in the early naughts, weekend days were a ghost town except if some event was going on.
Also, the Post-Dispatch has a rather interesting video up of a dancing traffic cop at Broadway & E. Grand on the north riverfront from 1971. Mighty times then.
Also, the Post-Dispatch has a rather interesting video up of a dancing traffic cop at Broadway & E. Grand on the north riverfront from 1971. Mighty times then.
goat314--Here's the link to a study that kicked off our "car optional" efforts in the early 2000's http://www.stlouis-mo.gov/archive/midtown-plan/ The study was also helpful in raising the $30mm site acquisition fund for Cortex. I have some condo market studies in pdf format but I don't know how to post them. For the real policy wonk, there's an assortment of regional benchmarking reports, early Cortex and Grove studies from the late 80's but they are all in book/paper format and there are 1000's of pages.
^ Thanks looks good....glad the plan is finally coming to fruition. I would like to see a city wide form based code, do you think that is a possibility in our lifetime? St. Louis a city of 61sq mi, is there recognition in the board of alderman that we must be wiser with land use to see growth in the future?
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I thought i would share what i found from random YouTube searches,
a old news story about security in Darst-webbe in the early 80's
Any other stories of St. Louis in the 80's 90's (even the 70's) from anyone on here??
a old news story about security in Darst-webbe in the early 80's
Any other stories of St. Louis in the 80's 90's (even the 70's) from anyone on here??
My biggest memory was that all the riverboats. St Louis was known for its riverboats, and now that trademark is disappearing without protest. The helicopter tours were big then too, and I think that has returned. I remember visiting Washington Avenue a lot, right before they did the streetscape 1999?. It was dead quiet, but the guys who helped start this forum were all excited about the project. We also did a lot of promotion and photography that helped make more people aware of neighborhoods we thought had potential - Lafayette Square, Benton Park, Etc. The crime was terrible in the 80's and 90's , so we can be happy that things have improved since peaking in the early 90's. I remember every single night someone seemed to have died at the hands of another. Yes, we still have problems, but I don't think they compared.