What's Next for Downtown?

downtown2007 · PostAug 30, 2011#12011-08-30T15:07+00:00

We are nearing the completion of the Peabody Opera House, MX, Leather Trades, the central library will be complete next year, and the Park Pacific is starting to fill up. The main question now is what’s next for downtown? For the first time in almost 10 years there are no significant plans to renovate any of the large vacant buildings left such as Jefferson Arms, Arcade, Chemical, Aliverne, Dragon Trading, and the buildings on Locust that the Roberts Bros now have for sale. In addition, there are still no plans for new construction in the downtown area despite some major spots still available.

I am interested in some other opinions on what we can expect in terms of continued development downtown so the rebuilding process continues instead of stalling. Excluding BPV

goat314 · PostAug 30, 2011#22011-08-30T15:29+00:00

I would love to see the remaining buildings get rehabbed within in the next few years. Then new infill construction would be ideal.

I would also like to more residents, cant storefronts filled with familiar brands, and better streetscapes on olive, locust, etc.

Alex Ihnen · PostAug 30, 2011#32011-08-30T15:47+00:00

I think once the HTC bill is settled, we may see some rehab of either Jefferson Arms, Chemical or Arcade. Those are large buildings, but the Roberts' buildings are smaller and may get done sooner - they just went on the market. What else? I'd expect a parking garage to be built north of Wash Ave and more retail announcements from MX...

RobbyD · PostAug 30, 2011#42011-08-30T16:30+00:00

Spent a wonderful couple of days with friends in Philadelphia...I would LOVE to see some retail begin to take off and mirror what I saw in Philly (on a much smaller scale)...And some additional housing (one of teh projects Alex mentioned above)...There is not reason we cannot have a retail district with some worthy shopping options...NOthing better than strolling downtown to shop, eat, play and live...

Continuing the Gateway Mall project is another huge piece of the puzzle in my mind...No reason at all we cannot have well landscaped, programmed and utilized green space like Rittenhouse Square in Philly or Bryant Park in NYC...

Joe Huber · PostAug 30, 2011#52011-08-30T16:50+00:00

I would recommend reading the Downtown Next document. Dowtown Next is the sequel to the original Downtown Now plan, formed in I think 1999, that gave the guiding principles and ideas for the resurgence of downtown (Washington Avenue, streetscape improvements, more residential, etc.)

Whereas, Downtown Now was much more focused on certain areas and buildings, Downtown Next is much more general and strategic, for example the creation of a "24-hour mentality." Obviously, this could be accomplished and will have to be accomplished through a multitude of things.

I would say though that the biggest things downtown will see in the next 10 years will be more streetscape improvements, more retail - hopefully more main stream, more residents, and especially with all of the recent announcements from financial institutions - more jobs.

Some interesting things though will be to see what happens with Ballpark Village, Union Station, Northside Regeneration, the Arch Grounds, the Bottle District, and if Metrolink Northside-Southside is built...

pat · PostAug 30, 2011#62011-08-30T16:57+00:00

I think Kiener Plaza will be done in the next few years as part of the Arch Grounds project. It looked like they had their design pretty much squared away on it and were in the process of getting funding.

stlien · PostAug 30, 2011#72011-08-30T18:02+00:00

I think we're about to see a wave of (national) retail and entertainment.

debaliviere · PostAug 31, 2011#82011-08-31T00:41+00:00

Chemical Building rehab.

doug · PostAug 31, 2011#92011-08-31T02:59+00:00

Streetscape improvements are vastly needed but I do not know how they will be funded.

With regard to downtown plans or city planning in general, I don't think they mean very much without codified rules in the form of design guidelines and zoning updates. We don't want to scare away development, but when we say we want things to happen there needs to be enforcement. The Century Garage facing the Old Post Office, despite the 1999 Plan explicitly saying this shouldn't happen, would be a good example.

People who say we're going to see national chains downtown soon should consider the amount of vacant retail space. Downtown is still very much dead except for isolated areas at select hours, has a small residential population, and cannot sustain even a meager Macy's. This results from regionally decentralized markets, suburban preferences, and other issues. I think we should remember that when thinking of how fast downtown will develop in the next ten years. Besides that Schnucks did have negative impacts to other retailers downtown so I wonder what would happen if a larger chain decided to enter the downtown market? We all want a downtown with large chains, because it says we have arrived and can compete with suburban areas, but when Toronto built Eaton Centre in 1970's that even was detrimental to adjoining Yonge Street.

For now we should fill our large number of unoccupied store fronts and hopefully direct development to one or two main downtown areas rather than have it scattered around. People talk about downtown being a walkable pedestrian area, but those who visit it at peak times are people from the county who are used to cars while a lot of downtown residents work outside the city. If we don't concentrate retail in convenient, centralized areas, I wonder how it can work absent 10,000 people moving downtown all at once. How does the Loop work? It's one main drag that even St. Charles people can understand. Downtown does not have that. I am not saying we should design our city for the preferences of other people in mind, but we're St. Louisans and don't like to walk around a lot to visit scattered stores.

jmedwick · PostAug 31, 2011#102011-08-31T03:06+00:00

No site-specific project, only a hope that City leadership focuses on improving downtown’s employment base. Until the slow atrophy of downtown as an employment center is reversed the long term potential for projects to address these large vacant buildings (most likely residential) plus the numerous empty lots will remain low.

c2city · PostAug 31, 2011#112011-08-31T21:24+00:00

debaliviere wrote:Chemical Building rehab.

I do hope the Chemical Building gets rehab as soon as possible. I really just hope whatever it ends up as keeps the name as The Chemical Building or something close.

Royalty · PostSep 02, 2011#122011-09-02T02:56+00:00

Joe Huber wrote:I would recommend reading the Downtown Next document. Dowtown Next is the sequel to the original Downtown Now plan, formed in I think 1999, that gave the guiding principles and ideas for the resurgence of downtown (Washington Avenue, streetscape improvements, more residential, etc.)

Whereas, Downtown Now was much more focused on certain areas and buildings, Downtown Next is much more general and strategic, for example the creation of a "24-hour mentality." Obviously, this could be accomplished and will have to be accomplished through a multitude of things...

I wouldn't put too much weight in that document. Having read it, I don't think it really hits the mark as a strategic document. Missing too many critical elements of a strategic plan and also missed key aspects affecting downtown. It's nice and looks pretty, but lacks substance.

What I think we'll see is public investment in infrastructure over any investment in the private sector, with emphasis on the archgrounds/new 70 bridge and possible lid. The private sector has been hit hard, and there's uncertainty, so anything large scale is likely to be on hold for at least 12-18 months. This has shown to be heading this direction, with announcements for improvements in various locations. What I'd LIKE to see is heavy investment by the City in considerable streetscape improvements, on the order of $25mil. Sidewalk widths of 12-18ft across the downtown area, with increased tree/vegetation plantings. Heavy emphasis on urban design enhancements, such as creating more active frontages or at least providing human-scale items of visual interest. Also, I'd love to see the City to River concept enacted. I think those are acheiveable within the next 12-18mo - and once done we can focus on larger targets like employment that Ducky Medwick has mentioned.

dredger · PostSep 02, 2011#132011-09-02T05:48+00:00

jmedwick wrote:No site-specific project, only a hope that City leadership focuses on improving downtown’s employment base. Until the slow atrophy of downtown as an employment center is reversed the long term potential for projects to address these large vacant buildings (most likely residential) plus the numerous empty lots will remain low.

Have to agree, I think it is reasonable and very possible that you could see Kellwood relocate downtown. Ideally, would like to see them take on the remaining Cupples loft (Koman, are your working on that?) or become anchor tenant for the revised skyhouse proposal on Wash Ave. Having Rawlings follow suit and Nestle/Purina picking up or adding space downtown would keep the momentum going and make a good 2012 in my mind. Then you might some future possibilities or maybe some relocations from outside of the region, key of course is just keep growing the corporate list, employee and residential numbers.

newstl2020 · PostSep 02, 2011#142011-09-02T06:05+00:00

We need a team of highly intelligent and socially gifted people working 24 hours to bring outside business to StL. Focus would be mainly on relationship building and informing about StL. Young, energetic, passionate. If given the proper backing, our city has the historical significance and future potential to become top 4 once again.

I am 100% StL.

Royalty · PostSep 02, 2011#152011-09-02T06:26+00:00

newstl2020 wrote:We need a team of highly intelligent and socially gifted people working 24 hours to bring outside business to StL. Focus would be mainly on relationship building and informing about StL. Young, energetic, passionate. If given the proper backing, our city has the historical significance and future potential to become top 4 once again.

I am 100% StL.

Going OT, but while I agree with the first part (highly intelligent people working 24hrs), I strongly disagree with the second part (bringing outside business to STL). I appreciate that chasing employers = jobs and $$$ for the region, but in reality it's an incredible waste of time and resources. It's far more productive (and sustainable) to put efforts into creating an entreprenurial atmosphere, where businesses can grow and thrive, rather than chasing the elusive 'corporation'. Part of this has to do with developing small retail/office spaces that allow for small businesses to start up (we're talking less than 800sqft).

dredger · PostSep 02, 2011#162011-09-02T18:01+00:00

Royalty wrote:
newstl2020 wrote:We need a team of highly intelligent and socially gifted people working 24 hours to bring outside business to StL. Focus would be mainly on relationship building and informing about StL. Young, energetic, passionate. If given the proper backing, our city has the historical significance and future potential to become top 4 once again.

I am 100% StL.
Going OT, but while I agree with the first part (highly intelligent people working 24hrs), I strongly disagree with the second part (bringing outside business to STL). I appreciate that chasing employers = jobs and $$$ for the region, but in reality it's an incredible waste of time and resources. It's far more productive (and sustainable) to put efforts into creating an entreprenurial atmosphere, where businesses can grow and thrive, rather than chasing the elusive 'corporation'. Part of this has to do with developing small retail/office spaces that allow for small businesses to start up (we're talking less than 800sqft).

In either case, I think Dave Nickauls put together a nice article that is relevant to this discussion.

As far as bringing in outside business. I think Dorsey making St. Louis downtown home for Square once and for all would be a nice fit considering our financial sector strength, presence of Mastercard, and the company has more to do with providing payment services. Having the special session economic package passed in its current form will finally give some needed economic development tools.

StartUp is ready to go

5 new tech firms picked for downtown incubator.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... 32c9d.html

debaliviere · PostSep 06, 2011#172011-09-06T03:07+00:00

dredger wrote:As far as bringing in outside business. I think Dorsey making St. Louis downtown home for Square once and for all would be a nice fit considering our financial sector strength, presence of Mastercard, and the company has more to do with providing payment services. Having the special session economic package passed in its current form will finally give some needed economic development tools.

Square currently has an office on Delmar, inside the city limits. I hadn't really thought of payment services as an industry cluster for STL, but you mentioned two good examples - Square and MasterCard. Another example is Intellispend, formerly American Express Incentive Services, which was a partnership between Amex and Maritz that provides stored value cards for the incentive market. Amex has divested its portion of the partnership, which is why the business was renamed - it's based on the Maritz campus in Fenton.

Perhaps this is an area in which STL can continue to grow. There certainly is some expertise here.

dredger · PostSep 06, 2011#182011-09-06T03:53+00:00

debaliviere wrote:
dredger wrote:As far as bringing in outside business. I think Dorsey making St. Louis downtown home for Square once and for all would be a nice fit considering our financial sector strength, presence of Mastercard, and the company has more to do with providing payment services. Having the special session economic package passed in its current form will finally give some needed economic development tools.
Square currently has an office on Delmar, inside the city limits. I hadn't really thought of payment services as an industry cluster for STL, but you mentioned two good examples - Square and MasterCard. Another example is Intellispend, formerly American Express Incentive Services, which was a partnership between Amex and Maritz that provides stored value cards for the incentive market. Amex has divested its portion of the partnership, which is why the business was renamed - it's based on the Maritz campus in Fenton.

Perhaps this is an area in which STL can continue to grow. There certainly is some expertise here.

Understand, but doesn't square also claim to be based in San Fran/Silicon Valley? My impression is that square's office on Delmar is a feel good thing but most of the time and hussle is getting venture funds out West. However, I believe Square's business model has a lot more to do with Mastercard then it does with Twitter, as an example. Maybe way off base about my thinking on Square, but St. Louis has a lot to offer to those who provide a financial services

zun1026 · PostSep 14, 2011#192011-09-14T03:27+00:00

Royalty wrote:
newstl2020 wrote:We need a team of highly intelligent and socially gifted people working 24 hours to bring outside business to StL. Focus would be mainly on relationship building and informing about StL. Young, energetic, passionate. If given the proper backing, our city has the historical significance and future potential to become top 4 once again.

I am 100% StL.
Going OT, but while I agree with the first part (highly intelligent people working 24hrs), I strongly disagree with the second part (bringing outside business to STL). I appreciate that chasing employers = jobs and $$$ for the region, but in reality it's an incredible waste of time and resources. It's far more productive (and sustainable) to put efforts into creating an entreprenurial atmosphere, where businesses can grow and thrive, rather than chasing the elusive 'corporation'. Part of this has to do with developing small retail/office spaces that allow for small businesses to start up (we're talking less than 800sqft).

I am much more interested in small business development over relocation of the "big fish". St. Louis once led the many industries that grew from the ground up. Not only were they committed to STL, but more of the money stayed in the community and more relationships formed a network that connected the right people together.

goat314 · PostNov 07, 2011#202011-11-07T22:44+00:00

Where is the Comprehensive Plan for Downtown St. Louis? Wasn't the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis supposed to be creating a solid land use plan for downtown? Does anybody else notice the lack of transparency with this organization?

Royalty · PostNov 07, 2011#212011-11-07T23:17+00:00

goat314 wrote:Where is the Comprehensive Plan for Downtown St. Louis? Wasn't the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis supposed to be creating a solid land use plan for downtown? Does anybody else notice the lack of transparency with this organization?

The partnership came up with Downtown Next 2020, which is the next step in the strategic planning phase, which, if you've read it, leaves a LOT to be desired. There is a considerable lack of understanding about what a 'strategy' is an what an 'objective' is. Not to mention there is a lack of emphasis on developing vacant land, an asanine stubbornness for maintaining the Gateway Mall, lack of identification for a road hierarchy - particularly north/south connections. Little consideration is given to streetscapes and their importance (i.e. narrowing or otherwise rationalisng space along Market and Tucker. Not to mention a stated continued effort to waste money and human resources to try and attract firms to the city!

It's like they worte out what their hopes and dreams were without actually engaging with the problem. There's a wonderful map that shows employment density, and surprise surprise, there's a cluster at Wachovia and another in the financial area from broadway to 10th between Washington and Chestnut - and then identify there's a lack of connectivity between employment nodes. MAYBE THERE SHOULD BE RETAIL OR OTHER FORMS OF EMPLOYMENT ALONG A MAJOR E/W THOROUGHFARE????

Just very frustrating - there's so much promise and so little understanding of the actual issues. Wasn't this put together by professionals?

zun1026 · PostJan 05, 2012#222012-01-05T05:37+00:00

Has anyone found the new Streetscape plan supposed to be released in 2010? There is mention of it in DowntownNEXT, but I can't seem to find it.

downtown2007 · PostFeb 20, 2012#232012-02-20T17:15+00:00

In comparing development in downtown STL to downtown Indy we are far behind. Recent article stating that 3 billion in investment and 85 commercial and residential projects are slated for Indy. Here in STL we really don't have any in the pipe. We can't even get someone to buy the Arcade or Chemical at a severely reduced price.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2012021 ... dyStar.com

goat314 · PostFeb 20, 2012#242012-02-20T17:30+00:00

^ That is because the city of St. Louis lacks a real plan to do anything. It is truly a shame.

I must add that we are making progress though. Many buildings are being rehabbed, but I think most people associate progress with shiny new towers, infill etc, which I think is about 5-10 years off for us. St. Louis will likely have a far superior urban core when we hit that critical mass and we will finally get that wow factor. We have to remember that cities like Indy, Denver, Dallas, Atlanta, Nashville etc. dont have the glut of historic warehouses we have. I think public infrastructure like streetscapes, lighting, transportation, and highway mitigation need to be addressed, but the city is broke as hell and without a county tax base we cannot compete.

stlien · PostFeb 20, 2012#252012-02-20T17:41+00:00

The Arcade at a "reduced" price is still a huge project ($100M). And it being offices probably wouldnt be the best since there are already so many vacancies. Also real estate investment firms can go elsewhere to get a better return on their money. There are still tons of opportunities in cities with better economics. So right now, its a waiting game.