^ They're not THAT bad... at least they have some brick on the facade. But they do look more like "quaint 1990s New England suburbs" than St. Louis.

STLgasm wrote:awful

Agreed



It's that they use the vinyl siding for only one part that makes it look so garish. If they used stucco or something, maybe it wouldn't look so bad. Right now, it looks like Mr. Potato House

Sure, they do look bad. But, at least they didn't put the garage in the front. That's gotta be worth at least a couple points.

^ Agreed - wasn't there some new construction in Dogtown that looked alright with all vinyl? The half-and-half has got to be a product of last century.

maybe if there were no brick layers unions, buildings would actually be built of well... BRICK... how interesting ones own union ruins ones own craft..

STLgasm wrote:Why bother with brick at all (if the idea is to build cheaply)? Just build the whole thing with vinyl-- it would look a lot better.

^Agreed.



And screw the unions. I couldn't care less about them. But, that isn't why we don't have all-brick houses and I am tired of hearing it. American consumers today want big houses, lots of big bathrooms, deluxe kitchens, extra big garages. And that is what the American consumer is getting despite union labor. Americans are quite happy to trade a brick constructed house for an oversized, lavishly appointed McMansion. Unions are not keeping the consumer from getting what he wants. Our suburbs are sprawling for eternity with oversized houses and oversized cars all built by union labor.

Expat wrote:

STLgasm wrote:Why bother with brick at all (if the idea is to build cheaply)? Just build the whole thing with vinyl-- it would look a lot better.

^Agreed.



And screw the unions. I couldn't care less about them. But, that isn't why we don't have all-brick houses and I am tired of hearing it. American consumers today want big houses, lots of big bathrooms, deluxe kitchens, extra big garages. And that is what the American consumer is getting despite union labor. Americans are quite happy to trade a brick constructed house for an oversized, lavishly appointed McMansion. Unions are not keeping the consumer from getting what he wants. Our suburbs are sprawling for eternity with oversized houses and oversized cars all built by union labor.

Where did unions come into this discussion?



And I have to say, having bought a gut rehab condo about 6 months ago that was, ahem, definitely not completed with union construction... I wouldn't do it again. I'm tired of wood floors that weren't nailed down right and are creaking more every day, windows that weren't put in square and are breaking from their hinge points, etc. Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

Tysalpha wrote:


Where did unions come into this discussion?

Don't you know? Every time they show a rendering of a half-brick house, we are reminded that the unions have stolen the American Dream. Bricks and all. We are left with miserable oversized houses with miles of granite countertops, stainless steel appliances, plasma TVs, multi-car garages, three & a half bathrooms, and closets big enough to park a Buick. If only the brick layers would work for less money, the American consumer would get a fair shake .

Craftsmen had a love of their craft. Today, trade unions are more concerned with "something" other than craftsmanship. It's quite obvious. When's the last time you've seen any fancy brickwork you see on any old turn of the century St. Louis neighborhoood on new construction? Anybody with any reasonable intellegence could learn to stack bricks and mortar against a plywood wall. It takes talent, and a love of the craft, to produce the kind of brickwork from the days when love of your own craft meant something. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if masonry is becoming a lost art in this country. It appears to me that most union workers in construction today are not craftsman. They are meerly assembly workers...yet we must pay though the nose for their...uh..."talents".

Oh well, I guess no one is getting my point. People are getting exactly what they want. They want oversized houses, not brick houses. It has nothing to do with unions.



Besides, the rich are still able to get fancy brickwork just like they have always done - if they want it. The middle classes and working classes are more interested in getting bigger houses with fancy kitchens and lots of bathrooms instead of fancy brickwork. The unions are not preventing Americans from having lavish houses, go see for yourself, go to any new subdivision. I am tired of that argument. Americans are living lavishly while employing union labor.



Many people (not all people) that keep blaming the unions for half brick houses have an agenda. They are really attacking unions for political reasons. It is an oversimplified argument that is easy to buy into.



I am not in a union, never have been, not from a union family, and recognize that big unions can have problems just like big business, big government, and big press. But, lets look at the real issues.



Back on topic: Considering the distressed state of Wellston, these are pretty nice houses. I don't know the location well and these houses may or may not be appropriate. But, I think Wellston has more potential than these houses imply due to its position on transit lines. I can image more transit oriented development being possible. These appear to be typical suburban imitations of farm houses. Having said that, I am certain that the families buying these homes will be very comfortable.

Expat wrote:Back on topic: Considering the distressed state of Wellston, these are pretty nice houses. I don't know the location well and these houses may or may not be appropriate. But, I think Wellston has more potential than these houses imply due to its position on transit lines. I can image more transit oriented development being possible. These appear to be typical suburban imitations of farm houses. Having said that, I am certain that the families buying these homes will be very comfortable.

Any development like this is good in Wellston. Growth in inner-ring suburbs like this can only help the region: even if the homes have a little too much vinyl siding.

^I'm with dweebe on this one (for the most part). I think that residents have a responsibility to encourage/force better development, but taking the approach that development must be textbook/theoretically correct is counterproductive. Ecoabsence just had a sensible post speaking to the fact that without more development, good development won't occur. And have you been through Wellston? I don't like the vinyl/brick fronts, but the fact that anything is being built in Wellston is a positive in my book. The old inner-ring suburbs are losing population. Should we fuel this trend by demanding something the market won't support?

Grover wrote:^I'm with dweebe on this one (for the most part). I think that residents have a responsibility to encourage/force better development, but taking the approach that development must be textbook/theoretically correct is counterproductive. Ecoabsence just had a sensible post speaking to the fact that without more development, good development won't occur. And have you been through Wellston? I don't like the vinyl/brick fronts, but the fact that anything is being built in Wellston is a positive in my book. The old inner-ring suburbs are losing population. Should we fuel this trend by demanding something the market won't support?

Well, I'm full of crap and thus, you're full of crap. I guess empty lots are better than new housing.



BTW: would the last person out of Wellston please turn the lights off when they leave?

I think some people are being too picky and elitist about this. What is the projected price range for these houses? Do you seriously expect them to have brick on four sides with stone accents and cornices? You don't see that even on $300,000 new construction.



I'm not saying that communities shouldn't have standards.. but they do need to be realistic for the price and take into account the needs of the population. People shouldn't be forced to live in an old run-down building or move out to Warren county just because they can't afford to build a Lindell-style mansion.

^Thank you, Tysalpha. Well said.



Maybe those who want to dictate what other people's homes look like should put up the money themselves.

^ That's my main beef with infill these days.



All vinyl looks less forced and more attractive than the brick-vinyl combination that seems to be the standard for infill in and around the city proper.

A good architect can mix vinyl, wood, tar paper, corrugated steel or any siding with brick and make it look good. Witness the one development in Dogtown that was recently done (forget the name or developer...sorry)

I think some people get "vinyl siding" and "siding" confused. There is aluminum siding and other synthetic types. Real wood siding beats the crap out of the typical new vinyl siding, which upon taking a good look resembles no siding that ever existed, except perhaps an exadurated design of box car siding (box car siding was siding placed on "shanty" type stuructures, made of old siding from dismantled wooden box cars.) Consequently, I've seen some vinyl siding that mimics real wood siding quite well.

That said, I still maintane that because St. Louis is known as a brick city, to lessen this is, to me, the same as architectural rape. (In Chicago, many an old frame structure has been torn down and replaced with brick front with dyed concrete block sides...why can this be done there, but not here?)

So I guess in St. Louis, we get back to the point of costs, unions, etc. Sorry to get off topic, but it almost can't be avoid in this discussion. I think dyed concrete block would look FAR superior to vinyl or even real wood siding for our city if we are to follow tradition in housing in our city while addressing cost.

And, I've been by these new Wellston homes. They are more suburban in that they have been placed on wider lots and address the street so, which means less density. What they replaced was mostly typical urban St. Louis, much like parts of south city or Dogtown: mixed single family and flats.