urbanSTL

addxb2 wrote:The military industrial complex has an impact on literally every region. Phoenix builds helicopters. St. Louis builds planes. Southern California builds space and satellite systems. Bombs and bullets are built in Texas, Tennessee, Kansas, Oklahoma. The intelligence that determines where to drop the bullets and bombs is manufactured in Virginia. There are nearly 500 military bases in every corner of the US contributing to economic development. This is like seeing a car crash and saying "thanks a lot Detroit. You should be ashamed of yourselves." 

And......? I think you're just proving my point even more lmao. "Actually, the entire American economy is held up by endless wars killing innocent people." Maybe if your family was blown up by a plane built in North County, you'd feel differently. At the end of the day, St. Louis' economy is bolstered by a massive defense budget that gets spent murdering innocent people. If people are allowed to celebrate defense contracts on this forum, I get to mourn the lives we destroy for the sake of jobs.

And this thread was started by some old [redacted] calling me naive for suggesting killing innocent school girls is actually bad.

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No, this thread started because you came in to an Urban Planning & Economic Development forum talking about dead children. Something everyone on here is very aware of because we use other platforms and alive when the US bombed Iraq. Having a conversation about the tradeoffs of economic development and war could've been good. You could've started by saying something "I don't feel good about Boeing's role as a war company, todays news specifically. The economic development isn't a valuable trade off". Most on here, including myself, would've agreed with your statement! Instead you tried to make a funny, someone took the bait, then you defaulted to everyone on UrbanSTL supports killing children. Thats why you were called naive. 

What is even sillier is that the response that triggered you into saying "UrbanSTL, where killing innocent schoolgirls is accepted." wasn't even critical of you. It was skeptical of Iran as a source. 

addxb2 wrote:No, this thread started because you came in to an Urban Planning & Economic Development forum talking about dead children. Something everyone on here is very aware of because we use other platforms and alive when the US bombed Iraq. Having a conversation about the tradeoffs of economic development and war could've been good. You could've started by saying something "I don't feel good about Boeing's role as a war company, todays news specifically. The economic development isn't a valuable trade off". Most on here, including myself, would've agreed with your statement! Instead you tried to make a funny, someone took the bait, then you defaulted to everyone on UrbanSTL supports killing children. Thats why you were called naive. 

What is even sillier is that the response that triggered you into saying "UrbanSTL, where killing innocent schoolgirls is accepted." wasn't even critical of you. It was skeptical of Iran as a source. 

If your reaction to allegations, and plenty of evidence, that a country known for killing innocent children killed innocent children again is using the "trust me bro" meme, you are implicitly defending the murder of innocent children and the moderators will not remove it or ban it because it's accepted here. Unless they prove me wrong.

And this is part of your problem. You think this stuff is up for debate when it's not. The objective fact that anyone in good conscience would hold is that the MIC is evil and has been used for several decades to kill and destroy the lives of innocents and more of our tax dollars going to it is bad and should not be celebrated. So no, I'm not seeking validation and certainty not from you. I'm bursting the bubble on here where eveyone seems to think more money going to Boeing is actually good because it boosts jobs in St. Louis. Reality is that it kills innocent school girls on the other side of the world.

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gone corporate wrote:@StlAlex Knock it off! As stated before: This isn't the forum for that. Go espouse your thoughts elsewhere. I'm not commenting on your commentary being right or wrong, but this is certainly not the venue for it. FFS, we know what we know already, you aren't revealing anything new to us. There are more experts to these subject matters in this forum than you realize. And your comments do nothing for the cause you're supporting. So, pretty please, with sugar on top: knock it off. 

Mods: Please intervene here if this tangent persists. Thanks. 

@framer The only thing I can think of with the Strike Eagles being taken down was that it was friendly fire over Kuwait, that the pilots didn't have any defensive posturing going on to anticipate their potential of receiving fire from below. Still noteworthy that the F-15s have never been 'technically' lost in combat, I believe 103-0. 

If I'm bursting your little bubble, then I'm doing the right thing. Couldn't care less who thinks they're an expert or not. Reality is this forum celebrates the MIC and the MIC has been used to kill innocent people, guilty people, all kinds of people, for decades. If a forum is about Boeing and people celebrate the construction of more usless killing machines, then my reminder of reality of dead kids sure as hell is welcome here.

I cannot possible imagine how twisted your mind must be to come to the conclusion that the MIC and the affects of the MIC should not be discussed in a forum about a company that only exists because of the MIC, or that it's a "tangent."

May I reiterate: More money and jobs for Boeing in St. Louis = more dead innocent people in far off lands. Just because you don't care doesn't change anything.

And yes, it was friendly fire that shot down the F-15s. Friendly fire that only happened because the MIC demanded a war.

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Since I’ve lived in a war and my day job is supporting the pentagon by solving complicated problems for them as a contractor,  any sane adult knows that war isn’t something anyone wants but it’s something that will happen and you have two options in war- kill or be killed.  You choose.    Anyway, I’m long on Boeing, Parsons, and Lockheed (this isn’t financial advice)

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

― Albert Einstein   

It’s all about Israel. This war is what Miriam Adelson paid $250MM for.

Middle East holds little strategic value to the US since the shale revolution. Its assets are a canal the US doesn’t use and oil/gas the US doesn’t buy.

When the boomers are gone, our relationship with Israel will end and Americans will stop dying in the Middle East.

Luckily, the US has a long history of highly successful, precision incursions in the Middle East. Should be a cake walk.

^Actually, everything. Going back to his "Auggie" days.  

I realize I shouldn't respond with personal insults, but his self-righteous rantings are annoying as hell. 

OK. Well given your surprise that American war planes can be shot down, it seems like you may be pretty naive too. And the fact that an ally shot down three of our F-15s suggests that this war is as ham fisted as it appears.

Let’s just be clear about some facts:

- The United States is at war without congressional approval, oversight, or even notice to the armed forces/intelligence committees.

- We do not have a clear objective in this war. We’ve heard 3 different stories.

- After 72 hours, the Iranian people have not started are rallying against the regime in any organized or significant fashion

- The US is continuing to move more assets to the region including ground troops

- The US military is explicitly using Christian end times prophecy language when briefing its troops on the mission.

- Innocent people are dying in droves.

- We suffered a Islamist terrorist attack in Austin Saturday night.

- Gas prices are shooting up.

- Yields on US debt are shooting up (the opposite usually happens during war)

This situation desperately needs cooler heads but Donald Trump gutted the State Department. There are no cool heads anymore.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

2:41 PM - Mar 03

OK. Well given your surprise that American war planes can be shot down, it seems like you may be pretty naive too. And the fact that an ally shot down three of our F-15s suggests that this war is as ham fisted as it appears.

Let’s just be clear about some facts:

- The United States is at war without congressional approval, oversight, or even notice to the armed forces/intelligence committees.

- We do not have a clear objective in this war. We’ve heard 3 different stories.

- After 72 hours, the Iranian people have not started are rallying against the regime in any organized or significant fashion

- The US is continuing to move more assets to the region including ground troops

- The US military is explicitly using Christian end times prophecy language when briefing its troops on the mission.

- Innocent people are dying in droves.

- We suffered a Islamist terrorist attack in Austin Saturday night.

- Gas prices are shooting up.

- Yields on US debt are shooting up (the opposite usually happens during war)

This situation desperately needs cooler heads but Donald Trump gutted the State Department. There are no cool heads anymore.

I, and likely many others on this forum, are well aware of all the above, but this is a thread about Boeing in St Louis.

As Gone Corporate mentioned earlier, no F-15 has ever been shot down in air-to-air combat anywhere in the world. Over 100 kills, and not a single loss is a remarkable record. 

It now appears that the 3 recently lost in the Mideast were all shot down by a single Kuwaiti F/A-18 (another St. Louis product).  

Obviously, the incident will be thoroughly scrutinized to determine what went wrong. Here's a bit more info on what happened:

 https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ame ... 00275.html

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense. Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense.  Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.  

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

I’m under the impression F15Es aren’t really supposed to be air to air fighters. They basically are used for missile strikes. An F18 is a better air to air fighter so I wouldn’t say it’s a huge surprise it shot them down, especially when they thought they were over a friendly country and likely caught by surprise by getting shot at so close.

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense.  Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.  

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

Blinded by hate for your own country, spouting non-sense.

Iran never received the s400 from Russia. If they did, Israel wouldn't have achieved air superiority immediately like they did in June.

If Iranian air defense was capable of this, how did it manage to shoot down such advanced jets beyond their own borders in Kuwait but perform so terribly in Iran?

"We cannot win this war." "We cannot win a war with Russia."

Man, you really hate America. The last 4 years have been the best advertisement for US and Israel military tech imaginable. I sure wouldn't want to be equipped with the Russian and Chinese junk that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Venezuela, and Russia have been fighting with. Not to mention the Rafaels that Pakistan downed.

You say we cannot win wars. But maybe you missed it, we re-established ties with Venezuela this week. American Airlines is restarting flights from Miami. Sounds like winning to me. 

^Jesus, I'm stupider for having read the above post.

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense. Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

(Does that say cannot win a war with Russia). lol

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

8:48 PM - Mar 07

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense.  Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.  

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

Blinded by hate for your own country, spouting non-sense.

Iran never received the s400 from Russia. If they did, Israel wouldn't have achieved air superiority immediately like they did in June.

If Iranian air defense was capable of this, how did it manage to shoot down such advanced jets beyond their own borders in Kuwait but perform so terribly in Iran?

"We cannot win this war." "We cannot win a war with Russia."

Man, you really hate America. The last 4 years have been the best advertisement for US and Israel military tech imaginable. I sure wouldn't want to be equipped with the Russian and Chinese junk that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Venezuela, and Russia have been fighting with. Not to mention the Rafaels that Pakistan downed.

You say we cannot win wars. But maybe you missed it, we re-established ties with Venezuela this week. American Airlines is restarting flights from Miami. Sounds like winning to me. 

What a loser you are. Critical analysis of the government, including the military, is called being a citizen. This country needs more citizens and less flag humpers like you right now.

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑

11:09 PM - Mar 07

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

8:48 PM - Mar 07

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense.  Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.  

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

Blinded by hate for your own country, spouting non-sense.

Iran never received the s400 from Russia. If they did, Israel wouldn't have achieved air superiority immediately like they did in June.

If Iranian air defense was capable of this, how did it manage to shoot down such advanced jets beyond their own borders in Kuwait but perform so terribly in Iran?

"We cannot win this war." "We cannot win a war with Russia."

Man, you really hate America. The last 4 years have been the best advertisement for US and Israel military tech imaginable. I sure wouldn't want to be equipped with the Russian and Chinese junk that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Venezuela, and Russia have been fighting with. Not to mention the Rafaels that Pakistan downed.

You say we cannot win wars. But maybe you missed it, we re-established ties with Venezuela this week. American Airlines is restarting flights from Miami. Sounds like winning to me. 

What a loser you are. Critical analysis of the government, including the military, is called being a citizen. This country needs more citizens and less flag humpers like you right now.

"Critical analysis".... any proof that Iran ever obtained operational s400s? Any proof of US jets being shot down over Iranian sovereignty? If they could shoot them down over Kuwait, as many OSINT videos show then why aren't they being shot down over Iran? 

Would love to see that "analysis". Or all you've got is name calling?

Seems you are projecting your desires for US military failure rather any proof. Scary what partisanship has done to this nation.

dbInSouthCity wrote:

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense. Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

(Does that say cannot win a war with Russia). lol

We are in a proxy war with Russia. All of NATO is. A full 50 country coalition. After the 2023 offensive it’s been all Russia winning by EVERY METRIC. Ukraine will run out of funds in April. The war is all but over and will end with Russia winning on the battlefield and instead of taking zero territory (Istanbul 2022) Ukraine will become a landlocked rump state. Russia will take most everything east of the dniper and likely all the way to Odessa to and we cant do anything to stop it.

RuskiSTL wrote:

moorlander wrote: ↑

5:40 PM - Mar 07

They haven’t been shot down before because this is the first engagement against against a 2nd tier military with strong air defense.  Not just sandal wearing farmers with rpgs and aks.

Odds are high these 4 planes were shot down by Iranian air defense. Most likely s300 or s400 batteries.

We cannot win this war. Just like we cannot with the war with Russia. And no nation will ever trust us because we cannot be trusted in a negotiation.  

With the poor preference of the f15e I’m concerned they may limit additional production. Problem is we need a work horse fighter. The f22 and f35 are some of the best fighters in the world but they are “pavement princesses” that require something like 6 hours maintenance for every hour of flight time.

Blinded by hate for your own country, spouting non-sense.

Iran never received the s400 from Russia. If they did, Israel wouldn't have achieved air superiority immediately like they did in June.

If Iranian air defense was capable of this, how did it manage to shoot down such advanced jets beyond their own borders in Kuwait but perform so terribly in Iran?

"We cannot win this war." "We cannot win a war with Russia."

Man, you really hate America. The last 4 years have been the best advertisement for US and Israel military tech imaginable. I sure wouldn't want to be equipped with the Russian and Chinese junk that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Venezuela, and Russia have been fighting with. Not to mention the Rafaels that Pakistan downed.

You say we cannot win wars. But maybe you missed it, we re-established ties with Venezuela this week. American Airlines is restarting flights from Miami. Sounds like winning to me. 

Are you suggesting that the mulching of defenseless civilians in Gaza is supposed to make American/Israeli military might look good? Are you seriously this blatantly satanic?

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