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PostSep 03, 2025#7001

We should have re done the entire river front from north to south even when the Rams stadium plan fell through. I agree there’s absolutely no excuses why we can’t have a world class riverfront. World class cities do world class things & St.Louis seems to not want to be that like leaders are afraid of positive change happening in the city unless it’s happening out in the ugly burbs & exurbs. If we didn’t have the Arch we be almost a bigger Cairo Illinois on the brink of not existing anymore. We should make it 100% a priority to have the entirety of the riverfront completely redone & expanded into one big beautiful inviting state park, national park or city owned park. This would change some perceptions about St.Louis could likely open a lot more development throughout downtown including the ugly areas of downtown. St.Louis has to do better the thing is does St.Louis want to do better or stay the same & remain as is. I love the potential of the Millennium development but I’m worried that once it’s done or if ever done then that’s it till another 10-20 year wait for the next development to happen. St.Louis is very underserved & underdeveloped. 4-5 new apartment buildings 10-20 floors would do wonders even along the riverfront.


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PostSep 03, 2025#7002

the barriers are there because SLMPD wants to limit ways in and out of there. 
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PostSep 03, 2025#7003

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
stlgasm wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
Drove along the levee last weekend from Paint Louis all the way to Laclede's Landing. My god, the access to the Landing and the general condition of the area is absolutely pathetic.  The former casino shelter where the Admiral was docked remains unkempt and deteriorating by the day. So cheap and tacky.  The entire stretch of Leonor K Sullivan Blvd. near the Landing feels forgotten, forlorn and uninviting. All the streets leading into the Landing are blocked off with ugly concrete highway barriers- literally ZERO effort to make the Landing feel welcoming, safe or attractive.  I don't think there's a more downtrodden big city downtown in the entire USA.  How can we sell our city to tourists and conventions when we allow our front door to look like absolute s**t.  No visitor to the riverfront could possibly leave with a positive impression of our city if they saw what I saw last weekend..  

On top of that, on a holiday weekend with picture perfect weather, I saw less than 10 people walking around the levee directly in front of the Arch.  We have a world famous monument surrounded by desolation and emptiness.  It's inexcusable that we accept this in our city.  Whatever has worked to increase vibrancy to tourist districts in other cities has obviously not been implemented here.  

#RantOver
Our nearest role model would be Louisville. What they've done is wonderful. At the bare minimum, their riverfront is what we should have.
I mean Louisville has an interstate and junctions mostly separating downtown from its riverfront so grass isn’t always greener but they have done some nice things under their walking bridge (though it’s partioned off by a massive spaghetti junction). But they do at least have trees along most of their riverfront.

I’m just asking for trees and plantings along the river and bike trail, not piers and overlooks and condo developments yet. I see no reason there can’t be native plantings and flood resistant plants. The concrete, debris, and parking is only worse for the flooding
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PostSep 03, 2025#7004

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
maybe this should be a pinned post for every 3 months the riverfront topic comes up; simple answer is we cannot do more because every spring the river can rise 20 feet in a week or less which is unique to us vs some other river cities like Cincinatti and Pittsburgh. The way the 100 feet from the river in looks is what it will look like.  sure, some cosmetic things can be done but it won't substantially change anything.   There is nothing wrong with the Landing river frontage, the ugly garage is gone, there is a frisbee golf course there now and the bike/multi use path, its kept clean 
You're explaining this as if we don't have eyes, db. I was there Monday and it literally looks worse than I've ever seen, ever.  "There is nothing wrong with the Landing river frontage"- you are delusional.  I can't even count how many tourists come into my shop and ask me what the hell happened to Laclede's Landing- they are dumbfounded and sad to see it languishing. Good luck convincing anyone except yourself that it looks fine. LOL!  I never thought St. Louis, the preeminent river city of America, could take lessons from Peoria, but here we are.  The seasonal flood excuse is a load of BS-- I remember the Landing in mid-2000s and the blocks leading up to the river were vibrant and well-maintained, and it dealt with the same river level fluctuations back then too.  

The Flats in Cleveland is a similar type of district that also went through a period of precipitous decline in recent years, but it has come back strong and is again one of downtown Cleveland's showpiece districts because Cleveland prioritized investment to bring The Flats back from the brink.  New apartments and businesses are popping up everywhere in the Flats, and they don't have anything nearly as iconic as the Arch to anchor that district.  Even doing the bare minimum- landscaping, lighting, graffiti/litter cleanup and basic upkeep would do wonders.  There are so many draws and assets on our riverfront, and yet St. Louis practically tries to repel visitors.
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PostSep 03, 2025#7005

The landing simply become a residential neighborhood, include to the half of the cardinals active roster. It doesn’t have to be a puke covered sidewalks at 3 am drunk fest nor will it. It has a very good residential occupancy and a huge anchor office tenant in a marketing firm that keeps growing. And you can do something about it, for starters, live in the city
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PostSep 04, 2025#7006

stlgasm wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
maybe this should be a pinned post for every 3 months the riverfront topic comes up; simple answer is we cannot do more because every spring the river can rise 20 feet in a week or less which is unique to us vs some other river cities like Cincinatti and Pittsburgh. The way the 100 feet from the river in looks is what it will look like.  sure, some cosmetic things can be done but it won't substantially change anything.   There is nothing wrong with the Landing river frontage, the ugly garage is gone, there is a frisbee golf course there now and the bike/multi use path, its kept clean 
You're explaining this as if we don't have eyes, db. I was there Monday and it literally looks worse than I've ever seen, ever.  "There is nothing wrong with the Landing river frontage"- you are delusional.  I can't even count how many tourists come into my shop and ask me what the hell happened to Laclede's Landing- they are dumbfounded and sad to see it languishing. Good luck convincing anyone except yourself that it looks fine. LOL!  I never thought St. Louis, the preeminent river city of America, could take lessons from Peoria, but here we are.  The seasonal flood excuse is a load of BS-- I remember the Landing in mid-2000s and the blocks leading up to the river were vibrant and well-maintained, and it dealt with the same river level fluctuations back then too.  

The Flats in Cleveland is a similar type of district that also went through a period of precipitous decline in recent years, but it has come back strong and is again one of downtown Cleveland's showpiece districts because Cleveland prioritized investment to bring The Flats back from the brink.  New apartments and businesses are popping up everywhere in the Flats, and they don't have anything nearly as iconic as the Arch to anchor that district.  Even doing the bare minimum- landscaping, lighting, graffiti/litter cleanup and basic upkeep would do wonders.  There are so many draws and assets on our riverfront, and yet St. Louis practically tries to repel visitors.
I agree, the condition of the infrastructure in downtown in general is absolutely disgusting. The riverfront is no exception. The city needs a lot of work in just beautification and infrastructure in general. 
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PostSep 04, 2025#7007

Man, it's extra bleak around Chemical building and old Macy's. I used to view situations like this as "opportunity" but I don't anymore. Things no longer operate in that manner. There is no more thinking like "Well, we'll move to Soho because it's abandoned and the rent is cheap". It's all wrapped up in corporate hands with a dash of City involvement. There's nothing that individuals can do about it. There's no talking sense to anybody in charge. They all still think they are sitting on gold.

PostSep 04, 2025#7008

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
The landing simply become a residential neighborhood, include to the half of the cardinals active roster.  It doesn’t have to be a puke covered sidewalks at 3 am drunk fest nor will it.  It has a very good residential occupancy and a huge anchor office tenant in a marketing firm that keeps growing.     And you can do something about it, for starters, live in the city
If only it was it the puke covered streets of yesteryear. When the vibe shift happened about 15 years ago it was pretty much lights out. Residential became the only option and it's great that's going ok. HALF the Cardinals roster? That's seems like an overestimate. I wonder if they drive to work? Hmm.
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PostSep 04, 2025#7009

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
the barriers are there because SLMPD wants to limit ways in and out of there. 
Why is that? Is crime in the landing particularly bad compared to other areas of downtown? What do they think restricting access into and out of the landing will accomplish? Is it temporary or permanent? Has that tactic proven effective - either there or elsewhere - in the past? 

-RBB
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PostSep 04, 2025#7010

There is virtually no crime on the Landing, it’s to restrict car access to LKS Blvd because 2,600,000 visit the Arch and the riverfront in front of the arch each year

PostSep 04, 2025#7011

According to the guy painting the other side of this old Hardee’s, something called Pops BBQ is opening there
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PostSep 04, 2025#7012

A true small business StL bbq joint would be great to have in that area. Visitors don’t get to experience StL street bbq bc the cooks mostly set up around north city and north county. Those buildings are an abomination, I’ve almost wished they would just be completely empty (pretty much are now) so that there would be a push to replace them. Hope it’s a Bbq tent moving to a brick and mortar!
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PostSep 04, 2025#7013

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
Yea, it’s pretty bad. Should be pouring so much money into it by the day, other river cities are doing it. Maybe we are just awaiting the transformation

The Gateway South development I thought would help the south of the arch, and I am beginning to worry about it ever getting off the ground. There were lots of people trying to check out Paint Louis but honestly it’s difficult to even navigate down there safely. Roads, sidewalks, overpasses, interstates, abandoned falling down buildings - it is all beat up and you’re worried about falling, having something fall on your head, or tear up your car.

The landing itself is looking better but there’s a lot of work to do around the 4 seasons/casino parking lots, the boulevard, and the passes under i-55 to Wash Ave (confusing intersections, speeding cars, panhandlers, tents, trash), under the Eads (full of bird feces and leaky water), and to the riverfront (concrete barriers, abandoned garage, weird empty slabs of concrete, abandoned pavilion, no plantings, some empty grass lots). Only gets worse going north of there.

Still don’t understand why we can’t at least start with some vegetation and plantings along the river (instead of the slabbed concrete), wouldn’t this help flooding anyways? There should be amazing landscaping and vegetation up to the Arch steps, at least for between Poplar bridge and Eads bridge.

Idk maybe we get some of the City-Arch-River big ideas and hoopla from back in the day with Gateway Foundations involvement with real estate.
^I agree... I actually think the city should hire one landscape designer, and a team of landscapers/doers to just go out and hit every open spot from downtown to CWE with some hardy landscaping that doesn't need a ton of upkeep... and when I think about comments complaining about how things look "run down" I'm imagining dirt or weed infested spots in the city... 
Then I imagine every un-landscaped spot in the city with some intentional and organized "hardy" plantings and... man the city looks so much better. Business can hire out the team to do spots in front of their properties (split 50/50) - so much opportunity for probably not a ton of expense here and is definitely seasonal for the labor... Imagine that designer pumping out tons of plans in the winter and summer and activating multiple spots every day with the team in the Spring and Fall. 
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PostSep 04, 2025#7014

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
There is virtually no crime on the Landing, it’s to restrict car access to LKS Blvd because 2,600,000 visit the Arch and the riverfront in front of the arch each year
Ah so it's a traffic control measure along LKS specifically then, that makes more sense thanks. Gasm's original comment "All the streets leading into the Landing are blocked off with ugly concrete highway barriers" made it sound like those were currently on the west and north sides too, not just LKS. 

Aren't there gates down there? I do understand the intent, but if these are intended to be permanent it would probably be good to engineer something a bit better/nicer than jersey barriers. 

This is an issue because LKS is long, straight, and flat, and relatively few cross streets - that makes for a seemingly ideal place to drag race or cruise your ATV/dirt bike back and forth to those who are inclined to do those things - to the detriment of arch visitors. 

Hindsight is 20/20, but the rebuild of the street should have included traffic control mechanisms other than gates/barriers - narrow the street, include bumpouts, traffic tables/speed humps/chicanes/etc. to make speeding or even cruising less desirable. And given the consistent volume of foot traffic, maybe posting a policeman there too could help both perceived safety for our visitors as well as curb illegal vehicular traffic behavior. 

-RBB
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PostSep 04, 2025#7015

pattimagee wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
Yea, it’s pretty bad. Should be pouring so much money into it by the day, other river cities are doing it. Maybe we are just awaiting the transformation

The Gateway South development I thought would help the south of the arch, and I am beginning to worry about it ever getting off the ground. There were lots of people trying to check out Paint Louis but honestly it’s difficult to even navigate down there safely. Roads, sidewalks, overpasses, interstates, abandoned falling down buildings - it is all beat up and you’re worried about falling, having something fall on your head, or tear up your car.

The landing itself is looking better but there’s a lot of work to do around the 4 seasons/casino parking lots, the boulevard, and the passes under i-55 to Wash Ave (confusing intersections, speeding cars, panhandlers, tents, trash), under the Eads (full of bird feces and leaky water), and to the riverfront (concrete barriers, abandoned garage, weird empty slabs of concrete, abandoned pavilion, no plantings, some empty grass lots). Only gets worse going north of there.

Still don’t understand why we can’t at least start with some vegetation and plantings along the river (instead of the slabbed concrete), wouldn’t this help flooding anyways? There should be amazing landscaping and vegetation up to the Arch steps, at least for between Poplar bridge and Eads bridge.

Idk maybe we get some of the City-Arch-River big ideas and hoopla from back in the day with Gateway Foundations involvement with real estate.
^I agree... I actually think the city should hire one landscape designer, and a team of landscapers/doers to just go out and hit every open spot from downtown to CWE with some hardy landscaping that doesn't need a ton of upkeep... and when I think about comments complaining about how things look "run down" I'm imagining dirt or weed infested spots in the city... 
Then I imagine every un-landscaped spot in the city with some intentional and organized "hardy" plantings and... man the city looks so much better. Business can hire out the team to do spots in front of their properties (split 50/50) - so much opportunity for probably not a ton of expense here and is definitely seasonal for the labor... Imagine that designer pumping out tons of plans in the winter and summer and activating multiple spots every day with the team in the Spring and Fall. 
Yes, the parts of the city where this has been prioritized look great. I think downtown will be getting some attention with these street projects (though I thought they could have done more plantings and landscaping with 7th street).

If you ever walk or hike the trail in front of the arch and up the north riverfront, that area could use lots of trees and plantings. It’s concrete wasteland. There’s a severe lack of green and trees, and you feel it up close and looking at our riverfront far away. There’s no way that having almost zero vegetation on the banks of the river is good for anything. As said above, as you go north and south of the national park super close to downtown, it’s gravel/weeds/debris/impassible areas and roads. The actual arch park is landscaped beautifully and the landing has done well getting landscaping, we just need that to extend east, south and north from those areas badly.

I’m sure Great Rivers Greenway has these things in mind as they have done some young tree planting on the trail but it may take multiple actors to overhaul a died out industrial strip of land.
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PostSep 04, 2025#7016

https://www.saucemagazine.com/places/pr ... e-18250985

Another downtown west bar on the way.

The building will also have another restaurant, office and 13 apartments
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PostSep 04, 2025#7017

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
pattimagee wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑
Sep 03, 2025
Yea, it’s pretty bad. Should be pouring so much money into it by the day, other river cities are doing it. Maybe we are just awaiting the transformation

The Gateway South development I thought would help the south of the arch, and I am beginning to worry about it ever getting off the ground. There were lots of people trying to check out Paint Louis but honestly it’s difficult to even navigate down there safely. Roads, sidewalks, overpasses, interstates, abandoned falling down buildings - it is all beat up and you’re worried about falling, having something fall on your head, or tear up your car.

The landing itself is looking better but there’s a lot of work to do around the 4 seasons/casino parking lots, the boulevard, and the passes under i-55 to Wash Ave (confusing intersections, speeding cars, panhandlers, tents, trash), under the Eads (full of bird feces and leaky water), and to the riverfront (concrete barriers, abandoned garage, weird empty slabs of concrete, abandoned pavilion, no plantings, some empty grass lots). Only gets worse going north of there.

Still don’t understand why we can’t at least start with some vegetation and plantings along the river (instead of the slabbed concrete), wouldn’t this help flooding anyways? There should be amazing landscaping and vegetation up to the Arch steps, at least for between Poplar bridge and Eads bridge.

Idk maybe we get some of the City-Arch-River big ideas and hoopla from back in the day with Gateway Foundations involvement with real estate.
^I agree... I actually think the city should hire one landscape designer, and a team of landscapers/doers to just go out and hit every open spot from downtown to CWE with some hardy landscaping that doesn't need a ton of upkeep... and when I think about comments complaining about how things look "run down" I'm imagining dirt or weed infested spots in the city... 
Then I imagine every un-landscaped spot in the city with some intentional and organized "hardy" plantings and... man the city looks so much better. Business can hire out the team to do spots in front of their properties (split 50/50) - so much opportunity for probably not a ton of expense here and is definitely seasonal for the labor... Imagine that designer pumping out tons of plans in the winter and summer and activating multiple spots every day with the team in the Spring and Fall. 
Yes, the parts of the city where this has been prioritized look great. I think downtown will be getting some attention with these street projects (though I thought they could have done more plantings and landscaping with 7th street).

If you ever walk or hike the trail in front of the arch and up the north riverfront, that area could use lots of trees and plantings. It’s concrete wasteland. There’s a severe lack of green and trees, and you feel it up close and looking at our riverfront far away. There’s no way that having almost zero vegetation on the banks of the river is good for anything. As said above, as you go north and south of the national park super close to downtown, it’s gravel/weeds/debris/impassible areas and roads. The actual arch park is landscaped beautifully and the landing has done well getting landscaping, we just need that to extend east, south and north from those areas badly.

I’m sure Great Rivers Greenway has these things in mind as they have done some young tree planting on the trail  but it may take multiple actors to overhaul a died out industrial strip of land.
The banks of the river is such an interesting spot that could look really cool or maybe just a bit better than the current... just imagining some sedum or river grasses that can handle flooding growing in-between that cobblestone. I would also say painting the street blue or something not so bleh - maybe a newer cobblestone? ...or even maybe you make a median strip or in this case a border strip of plantings would look a lot better...
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PostSep 04, 2025#7018

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
https://www.saucemagazine.com/places/pr ... e-18250985

Another downtown west bar on the way.

The building will also have another restaurant, office and 13 apartments
My thought is every time I see a pic or even the real estate brochures that comes to mind is that Downtown West and especially in & around the stadium with various empty lots seems prime for some well placed townhome/rowhouse infill development here and there intermixed with some more mixed use/rehab.   It would be nice to see if a home builder could come with say a 10, 20 or 40 unit type proposal.  What the market analysis would say.
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PostSep 04, 2025#7019

pattimagee wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
pattimagee wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
 ^I agree... I actually think the city should hire one landscape designer, and a team of landscapers/doers to just go out and hit every open spot from downtown to CWE with some hardy landscaping that doesn't need a ton of upkeep... and when I think about comments complaining about how things look "run down" I'm imagining dirt or weed infested spots in the city... 
Then I imagine every un-landscaped spot in the city with some intentional and organized "hardy" plantings and... man the city looks so much better. Business can hire out the team to do spots in front of their properties (split 50/50) - so much opportunity for probably not a ton of expense here and is definitely seasonal for the labor... Imagine that designer pumping out tons of plans in the winter and summer and activating multiple spots every day with the team in the Spring and Fall. 
Yes, the parts of the city where this has been prioritized look great. I think downtown will be getting some attention with these street projects (though I thought they could have done more plantings and landscaping with 7th street).

If you ever walk or hike the trail in front of the arch and up the north riverfront, that area could use lots of trees and plantings. It’s concrete wasteland. There’s a severe lack of green and trees, and you feel it up close and looking at our riverfront far away. There’s no way that having almost zero vegetation on the banks of the river is good for anything. As said above, as you go north and south of the national park super close to downtown, it’s gravel/weeds/debris/impassible areas and roads. The actual arch park is landscaped beautifully and the landing has done well getting landscaping, we just need that to extend east, south and north from those areas badly.

I’m sure Great Rivers Greenway has these things in mind as they have done some young tree planting on the trail  but it may take multiple actors to overhaul a died out industrial strip of land.
The banks of the river is such an interesting spot that could look really cool or maybe just a bit better than the current... just imagining some sedum or river grasses that can handle flooding growing in-between that cobblestone. I would also say painting the street blue or something not so bleh - maybe a newer cobblestone? ...or even maybe you make a median strip or in this case a border strip of plantings would look a lot better...
The cobblestone at least gives a unique look, and Id be fine keeping those. I hate the concrete slabs. I’m not sure we really need parking spaces down there anymore. What is Levee Road used for in front of the arch? Do we really need it there? While the river floods, the banks could be used for many things throughout the year, why not build some elevated overlooks/lookouts/piers type structures? Some art on the necessary concrete, plantings/grasses, a water feature? Look at what the conservation areas can do in places where the Mississippi floods constantly with their plantings. There’s lots of things we could do to make it more inviting and a great front porch to our city, it’s just a matter of working through the ideas and executing them. It’s not like things haven’t been proposed before (usually pretty ambitious things) so I certainly think we can do these little improvements at least, and not just say “well water gets high, it’s fine that it’s ugly, leave the haphazard concrete everywhere”
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PostSep 04, 2025#7020

Pretty sure it's used a lot for parking.
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PostSep 04, 2025#7021

People park there to access the riverboats, and the process is embarrassing.  You have to play 20 questions (exaggeration) with security before they let you through.  I miss the active, older days.
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PostSep 04, 2025#7022

Didn't the cruisers take over Wharf Street several years ago and pretty much ruin it for everyone?
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PostSep 04, 2025#7023

Bigger loss for a city's riverfront?
  • St. Louis losing the floating McDonalds?
  • Cincinnati losing the floating Hooters?
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PostSep 04, 2025#7024

My back is starting to hurt getting all this work done
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PostSep 05, 2025#7025

framer wrote: ↑
Sep 04, 2025
Didn't the cruisers take over Wharf Street several years ago and pretty much ruin it for everyone?
Yes, The "cruisers" did absolutely ruin it for everyone. The out-of-control drivers of today don't make matters any better. The police have little control over traffic issues, so barricades being placed is the way the city has decided to solve the issue. Folks can argue all they want about why this and why that. Fact of the matter is that many locals and tourists aren't going to be where they aren't welcomed. The city (generally) welcomes lawlessness. It has for years, and it shows. It's really a damn shame. I remember when it was a welcoming, vibrant area, for everyone. Much of the city was. 

I applaud the efforts to keep it alive, vibrant and beautiful, from everyone on here, behind the scenes, in the neighborhoods, and in the business community.
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