urbanSTL

NYC is now above pre-covid return to office numbers at like 100.4%

Manhatten's vacancy rate in Q2 was 14.1%, so it's very low for 2025. The only data I can quickly find from 2019 is that Manhatten's vacancy was in the 8-11% range. But 14.1% in Manhatten is literally more than the entire STL metro area, so it is still a lot.

It's also true that new office developments have been attracting tenants from old space. And it feels like I see an article about an office conversation in Manhatten at least once a week.

Apologize if I missed this. Is something going into the old Maurizio's connected to City lot by Enterprise/City Hall. Baffles me how little retail/restaurant activity (outside of Union Station) exists near a major venue. I would like to see a few hockey bars & options for people before & after games. Crazy a hockey bar near the arena never happened.  

The environment around Enterprise/Stifel kills any possibility for development. The parking, MetroLink tracks, Market/14th/Tucker, the highway ramp, the multiple government buildings....

If we want to maximize the area, we would need to cap the Metro tracks, remove the highway ramp, and vacate the city office building. Doing these things would allow for a significant influx of development and would almost certainly keep more people at downtown earlier and later than they currently show up, where most just show up for the event. I mean, Enterprise allows people to stay for 45 minutes after the game to drink at the Biergarten because there is no close by place to go drink.

However, all of that is a pipe dream and is never going to happen. So my personal preference is that whenever Enterprise needs to be replaced, the city seek a location near the convention center for a new arena. I really like how Capital One Arena fits in the street grid in Washington DC. I'd like to see something like that built on what is currently 1005 Convention Plaza, the former Holiday Inn at 811 N 9th Street, and the two parking lots to the south.

By moving the Blues and our top indoor concert venue to this side of downtown would not only help redevelop a rougher area of downtown, it would put all the attendees closer to where most of the downtown restaurants are. And it wouldn't hurt a restaurant like Sybergs because they already run a shuttle.

I just generally think Enterprise is in a bad location and we should want a new arena in a better location in the long term.

I think a new arena should be on Choteau’s Landing. But we’re not getting a new arena for many years so this is a moot point.

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

I think a new arena should be on Choteau’s Landing. But we’re not getting a new arena for many years so this is a moot point.

Possibly the worst place for an arena of any kind.

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

Apologize if I missed this. Is something going into the old Maurizio's connected to City lot by Enterprise/City Hall. Baffles me how little retail/restaurant activity (outside of Union Station) exists near a major venue. I would like to see a few hockey bars & options for people before & after games. Crazy a hockey bar near the arena never happened.  

Sports bar and a private Lounge

dweebe wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

Apologize if I missed this. Is something going into the old Maurizio's connected to City lot by Enterprise/City Hall. Baffles me how little retail/restaurant activity (outside of Union Station) exists near a major venue. I would like to see a few hockey bars & options for people before & after games. Crazy a hockey bar near the arena never happened.  

Jacques sports bar did a decent run for a while in the NW corner of the Sheraton. I had the misfortune of watching the St. Louis Rams SB36 loss there.

Schmiezings went in across the metro tracks when they opened late in 95 after the lockout/strike - It was in one of two one story warehouses with a high bowed ceiling - the place was pretty big and had the center ice scoreboard from the arena hanging over the bar - It had a good crowd on weekend game nights and an OK crowd on weekday games - Went in there once before a Cards game in August and we were the only ones there. I think it made it till about 99 or 2000 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

Apologize if I missed this. Is something going into the old Maurizio's connected to City lot by Enterprise/City Hall. Baffles me how little retail/restaurant activity (outside of Union Station) exists near a major venue. I would like to see a few hockey bars & options for people before & after games. Crazy a hockey bar near the arena never happened.  

Sports bar and a private Lounge

Glad to hear something is going in there!

I remember the old schmiezings. That place iwas awesome! I wonder what happened to the old arena scoreboard.

Auggie wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

The environment around Enterprise/Stifel kills any possibility for development. The parking, MetroLink tracks, Market/14th/Tucker, the highway ramp, the multiple government buildings....

Completely disagree.   

The Arena is fine in my opinion.   What it lacks is the additional locker, training and back office space to more competitive in attracting NCAA and other sporting events, even an NBA team.

First, What the area lacks is a vision for infrastructure & built environment around it on what could be possibly the greatest sports street in America not too mention a great urban area all around with tremendous connectivity.  Imagine if the city could land a NBA team to the arena.  You would literally have MLB, NHL, NBA on Clark and MLS within spitting distance.

My vision,  many of the ideas poached from others.   

- Old Muni Courts development transitions to a broader Enterprise Center development but incorporating the backlot as underground parking connecting underground directly to the Entreprise Center.  Close street, cut out access, and rebuild street (think old Tucker Ave w railroad underneath).   This allows the current Enterprise Center garage immediately to the west to be demolished and expanded lockers, training and back office can be added
- Old Muni Courts back lot from surface up becomes structure  parking/residential tower as a greater Muni development.   Thus adding more built environment to Clark.
- The freeway ramps go away (above ground demo is doable and affordable) and property sold for development.  More built environment built along Clark and consistent with Cupples Warehouse, old and new.
- The Gateway Transportation needs expansion and a dramatic welcoming upgrade.
- Metrolink union station needs to be moved to west side of Union Station.  I think it is doable but not really sure.   Becomes new transit gateway to Union Station/Soccer stadium, etc.   and balances out the respective downtown stops.    
- Future phases - maybe cap more of metrolink eastward of Union Station andin front of Enterprise center
- Future phases - more built infill across/south of Enterprise.
- Future phases - reserve some space for a pocket park focus around residents South of Market 
  
The big cost item of course is Enterprise expansion/underground parking.   Probably followed by future metrolink cap.  However, i think the freeway ramps going away is pretty cost effective way of freeing up developable land and compliments a greater Muni Courts backlot development.

dredger wrote: ↑

Aug 23, 2025

Auggie wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

The environment around Enterprise/Stifel kills any possibility for development. The parking, MetroLink tracks, Market/14th/Tucker, the highway ramp, the multiple government buildings....

Completely disagree.   

The Arena is fine in my opinion.   What it lacks is the additional locker, training and back office space to more competitive in attracting NCAA and other sporting events, even an NBA team.

First, What the area lacks is a vision for infrastructure & built environment around it on what could be possibly the greatest sports street in America not too mention a great urban area all around with tremendous connectivity.  Imagine if the city could land a NBA team to the arena.  You would literally have MLB, NHL, NBA on Clark and MLS within spitting distance.

My vision,  many of the ideas poached from others.   

- Old Muni Courts development transitions to a broader Enterprise Center development but incorporating the backlot as underground parking connecting underground directly to the Entreprise Center.  Close street, cut out access, and rebuild street (think old Tucker Ave w railroad underneath).   This allows the current Enterprise Center garage immediately to the west to be demolished and expanded lockers, training and back office can be added
- Old Muni Courts back lot from surface up becomes structure  parking/residential tower as a greater Muni development.   Thus adding more built environment to Clark.
- The freeway ramps go away (above ground demo is doable and affordable) and property sold for development.  More built environment built along Clark and consistent with Cupples Warehouse, old and new.
- The Gateway Transportation needs expansion and a dramatic welcoming upgrade.
- Metrolink union station needs to be moved to west side of Union Station.  I think it is doable but not really sure.   Becomes new transit gateway to Union Station/Soccer stadium, etc.   and balances out the respective downtown stops.    
- Future phases - maybe cap more of metrolink eastward of Union Station andin front of Enterprise center
- Future phases - more built infill across/south of Enterprise.
- Future phases - reserve some space for a pocket park focus around residents South of Market 
  
The big cost item of course is Enterprise expansion/underground parking.   Probably followed by future metrolink cap.  However, i think the freeway ramps going away is pretty cost effective way of freeing up developable land and compliments a greater Muni Courts backlot development.

Aren't you just proving that my point is correct? You're talking about hundreds of millions in public and private investment and tons of willpower that would need to be made just to get the area improved a little bit. Reality is that the location is pretty bad and very few people stay downtown longer than their event requires.

I would just rather let the next 10-15 years play out naturally and build a new arena closer to the core of downtown, where the environment already is good and there's already lots of restaurants and business to keep people downtown longer.

^  Actually, I think you help my point more than anything.   Great Cities to do great things for their built environment and St. Louis must change its mentality.   I was just in Boston this past week.  City came out ahead with the Big DIG at end of day.  I used to live in the Bay Area.  I can't imagine strolling along the waterfront from Ferry Terminal to Fisherman's Wharf with a raised freeway above my head or without the park they built over a freeway to connect Chrissy Field/Park to the city.   New York City to Seattle have and or rebuilding their waterfronts and adding transit.   

Instead,  What I take away from your comments is that knocking down a couple of freeway ramps is a hurdle to high?  Actually rebuilding a downtown transit station that connects metrolink, Amtrak and buses which happens to be a gateway into the city is way too much to ask?   Building a new arena is literally millions of dollars.  Why not keep the arena and make its surroundings more connected, better utilized?  

Quit imagining the easiest, cheapest way to push something from here to over there and leave in its wake a partially developed built environment with a less the desirable entry to the city that will now include an empty underutilized arena.   Hoping that something changes in  10 to 15 years is not a plan,  it is not a vision, and it is not leadership. 

dredger wrote: ↑

Aug 24, 2025

^  Actually, I think you help my point more than anything.   Great Cities to do great things for their built environment and St. Louis must change its mentality.   I was just in Boston this past week.  City came out ahead with the Big DIG at end of day.  I used to live in the Bay Area.  I can't imagine strolling along the waterfront from Ferry Terminal to Fisherman's Wharf with a raised freeway above my head or without the park they built over a freeway to connect Chrissy Field/Park to the city.   New York City to Seattle have and or rebuilding their waterfronts and adding transit.   

Instead,  What I take away from your comments is that knocking down a couple of freeway ramps is a hurdle to high?  Actually rebuilding a downtown transit station that connects metrolink, Amtrak and buses which happens to be a gateway into the city is way too much to ask?   Building a new arena is literally millions of dollars.  Why not keep the arena and make its surroundings more connected, better utilized?  

Quit imagining the easiest, cheapest way to push something from here to over there and leave in its wake a partially developed built environment with a less the desirable entry to the city that will now include an empty underutilized arena.   Hoping that something changes in  10 to 15 years is not a plan,  it is not a vision, and it is not leadership. 

My point is that nothing will change in the next 10-15 years because the area is naturally a bad environment for a sports arena like Enterprise. You need hundreds of millions of investments to improve the area to something suitable, and it would still be inferior to a new arena built near the core of downtown.

Enterprise has been there for 30 years, the Gateway Station for 15ish, if there hasn't been a big influx of private development yet, there isn't going to be. The time to do the things you list was in the 1990s and 2000s.

So, in my view, that ship has sailed and leaders of that era failed. So the next arena, whenever that comes, needs to be built in a better location, ideally closer to the core of downtown, where the bulk of the hotels, restaurants, and retail already exist. Would be a massive boost to our already pretty great downtown core (in terms of built environment).

Edit: I also can't emphasize enough how if the NBA does eventually expand to STL or we can land a relocation, a new arena will be required anyway.

Auggie wrote: ↑ o the next arena, whenever that comes, needs to be built in a better location, ideally closer to the core of downtown, where the bulk of the hotels, restaurants, and retail already exist. Would be a massive boost to our already pretty great downtown core (in terms of built environment).

Edit: I also can't emphasize enough how if the NBA does eventually expand to STL or we can land a relocation, a new arena will be required anyway.

Where closer to the core are you going to find room for it? North of the dome is about the only spot big enough that you aren’t doing some major demolition and closing down streets. And I don’t see that as a better location than now. If they build a new one I’m going to assume it will be further from the core.

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Aug 24, 2025

Auggie wrote: ↑ o the next arena, whenever that comes, needs to be built in a better location, ideally closer to the core of downtown, where the bulk of the hotels, restaurants, and retail already exist. Would be a massive boost to our already pretty great downtown core (in terms of built environment).

Edit: I also can't emphasize enough how if the NBA does eventually expand to STL or we can land a relocation, a new arena will be required anyway.

Where closer to the core are you going to find room for it? North of the dome is about the only spot big enough that you aren’t doing some major demolition and closing down streets. And I don’t see that as a better location than now. If they build a new one I’m going to assume it will be further from the core.

I mentioned a spot that would work in my first post. Theres 2 surface parking lots, a mostly vacant low tier office building, and the former Holiday Inn hotel that makes up ~6.5 acres where you could fit an arena and a hotel.

So demolishing 2 crappy buildings and refilling it with a sports area + filling in 2 surface parking lots.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

Aug 22, 2025

Apologize if I missed this. Is something going into the old Maurizio's connected to City lot by Enterprise/City Hall. Baffles me how little retail/restaurant activity (outside of Union Station) exists near a major venue. I would like to see a few hockey bars & options for people before & after games. Crazy a hockey bar near the arena never happened.  

Sports bar and a private Lounge

boring. their performance is strongly tied to how well cards or other stl teams do in downtown. not sustainable.

^ taxable sales at ballpark village are +24% over last year through June, despite the cards attendance dropping off the face of the earth. Maybe people will soon realize it’s not just sports

Auggie, why not simply build the new arena to the south and on other side of metrolink tracks of its current location?.  You could literally cover the current metrolink tracks in the trench and incorporate Union Station stop into the the mix.  Never have to go out in the rain or snow when going to a Blues game.  Or mak it part of a bigger plan to rebuild Gateway center.   I think the footprint is there. 

Jshank brings up a point.  Start talking new Arena and it might end up who knows where and pretty sure Chesterfield will be front and center offering Blues a new home.  Downtowns need all the above to survive from new class A, sports, residents and won't mention other things.

Where are the troops?!

dredger wrote: ↑

Aug 24, 2025

Auggie, why not simply build the new arena to the south and on other side of metrolink tracks of its current location?.  You could literally cover the current metrolink tracks in the trench and incorporate Union Station stop into the the mix.  Never have to go out in the rain or snow when going to a Blues game.  Or mak it part of a bigger plan to rebuild Gateway center.   I think the footprint is there. 

Jshank brings up a point.  Start talking new Arena and it might end up who knows where and pretty sure Chesterfield will be front and center offering Blues a new home.  Downtowns need all the above to survive from new class A, sports, residents and won't mention other things.

The parking lots across the tracks have much of the same deep rooted problems as the current location. Massive roads on all sides, government buildings, a school, and then the hotel that still hasn't been redeveloped. I do like the idea of an arena and Gateway Station combined (reminiscent of MSG or TD Garden) however.

Reality is that the Blues will want a new arena in 10-15 years and any NBA possibility requires a new arena. It's just a fact of life. Getting it closer to where most of downtown's activity already is should be preferable to the current, mediocre environment.

It is hard to escape the conclusion that some children in our city matter more than others to the Spencer administration. For the past four months, I have raised repeated alarms and reached out to both the Mayor’s office and SLMPD about a public health crisis unfolding at the city park at 14th and Pine. This site has become an open-air drug camp just 62 feet from the entrance of St. Louis Voices Academy of Media Arts, where 250 students attend school, and only 400 feet from Confluence Preparatory Academy, which serves another 353 students.

These children walk past overdoses on a near-daily basis. They witness violent fights, stabbings, and multiple shootings that have occurred this year in direct proximity to their schools. I pray that no student’s life is cut short by a stray bullet or by the consequences of continued inaction from this administration.

This situation would never be tolerated for even a single day if it were occurring near Francis Park or 62 feet from the front door of Mayor Spencer’s own child’s school. Yet here, in the heart of downtown, these students are forced to live and learn under conditions no child should be subjected to. Immediate action is not just warranted, it is a moral obligation.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 25, 2025

It is hard to escape the conclusion that some children in our city matter more than others to the Spencer administration. For the past four months, I have raised repeated alarms and reached out to both the Mayor’s office and SLMPD about a public health crisis unfolding at the city park at 14th and Pine. This site has become an open-air drug camp just 62 feet from the entrance of St. Louis Voices Academy of Media Arts, where 250 students attend school, and only 400 feet from Confluence Preparatory Academy, which serves another 353 students.

These children walk past overdoses on a near-daily basis. They witness violent fights, stabbings, and multiple shootings that have occurred this year in direct proximity to their schools. I pray that no student’s life is cut short by a stray bullet or by the consequences of continued inaction from this administration.

This situation would never be tolerated for even a single day if it were occurring near Francis Park or 62 feet from the front door of Mayor Spencer’s own child’s school. Yet here, in the heart of downtown, these students are forced to live and learn under conditions no child should be subjected to. Immediate action is not just warranted, it is a moral obligation.

Serious question because I don’t know the answer.

Is this a new problem or was it the same over the last few administrations?