I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
I think the city and region in general does a horrible job investing in poor and black neighborhoods. St. Louis literally has an outdated benign neglect strategy when it comes to marginalized neighborhoods, which brings down the value of our whole region. There is absolutely no reason half of St. Louis should look as horrible as it does. Even the experience of driving down I-70 in comparison to other highways in the region is an absolute disgrace and sends a horrible message to the world. Keep in mind this is also the highway from the airport to downtown. I wonder how business people and tourist perceive the city if they take that route. How much would it take for business and civic leaders to rehab some of the older neighborhoods along the I-70 corridors and give the corridor the I-64 treatment?addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
You're correct, I don't agree at all that a bike path is anywhere near similar to a train line and comparing the two is definitely not something I would take seriously.addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
"bike path" = a complete reconstruction of North Grand including reduction, repaving, street trees, benches, wayfinding, bus infrastructure and prioritization, all new lighting/stop lights.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025You're correct, I don't agree at all that a bike path is anywhere near similar to a train line and comparing the two is definitely not something I would take seriously.addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
Regardless, they're both claiming to be what will redevelop the area. Simply stating fact, the Brickline will be done first and can show us if the City is competent enough to execute that promise.
Except, one is a train and the other is a bike path.addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025"bike path" = a complete reconstruction of North Grand including reduction, repaving, street trees, benches, wayfinding, bus infrastructure and prioritization, all new lighting/stop lights.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025You're correct, I don't agree at all that a bike path is anywhere near similar to a train line and comparing the two is definitely not something I would take seriously.addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
Regardless, they're both claiming to be what will redevelop the area. Simply stating fact, the Brickline will be done first and can show us if the City is competent enough to execute that promise.
Also, the neighborhoods that have a MetroLink station have grown by some 30% since 2000 despite the city's overall population loss of over 13%. We already have evidence that trains help STL grow.
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I'm not sure this is a particularly apt test. First, there's a pretty big difference between partnering with a not for profit with a revenue of $50M and a quasi government entity bringing in $350M. And I'm not even sure scale alone is the biggest difference. GRG is doing some great work, but even if a roadway redesign project on which GRG takes point were to fail I don't think that would necessarily tell us much about the likely success or failure of a transit construction project that included a road redesign. The Brickline Greenway, great as it is, is not intended to introduce new uses. It's planned to make existing uses safer, better, and generally more pleasant. Green Line, by contrast, is a completely new ballgame, putting a new modality right smack in the middle of one that many of us are arguing is causing the problem, thereby providing a fresh alternative, partially replacing it. Further, the success or failure of the development surrounding these things is not something that can be laid wholly at the feet of any of the above participants, since that relies on private developers to step up as well, and there's an awful lot of additional moving parts like perceptions of safety or desirability, bakers perception of financial viability, and so forth. The two aren't completely unrelated, but there's different players, different scales, different scopes, different methodologies . . . They're both happening here. They both hope to move people out of cars. As such they both peripherally involve automotive transportation, and the city has to sign off on both. But is there anything else they really have in common? What is the city going to prove beyond whether they can play nicely with others?addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
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I don’t think the evidence is so strong there. I think nearly all the neighborhoods around the St Louis County (aside from Clayton), as well as all the East Side stops would show population loss surrounding their Metro stops.Auggie wrote:Except, one is a train and the other is a bike path.addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025"bike path" = a complete reconstruction of North Grand including reduction, repaving, street trees, benches, wayfinding, bus infrastructure and prioritization, all new lighting/stop lights.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025You're correct, I don't agree at all that a bike path is anywhere near similar to a train line and comparing the two is definitely not something I would take seriously.
Regardless, they're both claiming to be what will redevelop the area. Simply stating fact, the Brickline will be done first and can show us if the City is competent enough to execute that promise.
Also, the neighborhoods that have a MetroLink station have grown by some 30% since 2000 despite the city's overall population loss of over 13%. We already have evidence that trains help STL grow.
symphonicpoet wrote:I'm not sure this is a particularly apt test. First, there's a pretty big difference between partnering with a not for profit with a revenue of $50M and a quasi government entity bringing in $350M. And I'm not even sure scale alone is the biggest difference. GRG is doing some great work, but even if a roadway redesign project on which GRG takes point were to fail I don't think that would necessarily tell us much about the likely success or failure of a transit construction project that included a road redesign. The Brickline Greenway, great as it is, is not intended to introduce new uses. It's planned to make existing uses safer, better, and generally more pleasant. Green Line, by contrast, is a completely new ballgame, putting a new modality right smack in the middle of one that many of us are arguing is causing the problem, thereby providing a fresh alternative, partially replacing it. Further, the success or failure of the development surrounding these things is not something that can be laid wholly at the feet of any of the above participants, since that relies on private developers to step up as well, and there's an awful lot of additional moving parts like perceptions of safety or desirability, bakers perception of financial viability, and so forth. The two aren't completely unrelated, but there's different players, different scales, different scopes, different methodologies . . . They're both happening here. They both hope to move people out of cars. As such they both peripherally involve automotive transportation, and the city has to sign off on both. But is there anything else they really have in common? What is the city going to prove beyond whether they can play nicely with others?addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
They’re both corridor infrastructure improvements that claim to spur economic growth and redevelopment. My point wasn’t to start a debate. It’s not up for debate. Two large entities (Bi-State and GRG) with support of the City of St. Louis have made roadmaps for infrastructure + redevelopment.
I, as do the private and public funding stakeholders, expect the corridor to redevelop because of the Brickline. That’s similar to the Green Line but will be done first.
IMO, it should be easier to redevelop North Grand. It’s the busier corridor, it’s the corridor with identity in the community, South Grand as a model, the Brickline will touch every vacant property between MLK and Natural Bridge, and GRG sees themselves as a steward.
^ I could not agree more. In addition, I'm still wondering why the rebuilding of Hwy. 70 did not extend to downtown? This should have happened.goat314 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I think the city and region in general does a horrible job investing in poor and black neighborhoods. St. Louis literally has an outdated benign neglect strategy when it comes to marginalized neighborhoods, which brings down the value of our whole region. There is absolutely no reason half of St. Louis should look as horrible as it does. Even the experience of driving down I-70 in comparison to other highways in the region is an absolute disgrace and sends a horrible message to the world. Keep in mind this is also the highway from the airport to downtown. I wonder how business people and tourist perceive the city if they take that route. How much would it take for business and civic leaders to rehab some of the older neighborhoods along the I-70 corridors and give the corridor the I-64 treatment?addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025I recognize that some may not agree, but the City will have an opportunity to prove that they can implement infrastructure oriented redevelopment. The Brickline Greenway along North Grand is a complete rebuild of North City's primary arterial, now under construction. If they can't capitalize on the investment and available land with a partner like GRG, then I'm not going to believe that MetroLink will do any better.
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We have a long way to go to prove that STL can build around infrastructure improvements. I can count the number of Metrolink adjacent TOD projects on one hand outside of the core Forest Park - Lacledes Landing stretch of stations. So much room to build around so many stations if we just had the resources and vision.
Places that- say it with me- have not actually tried to get any development around their MetroLink stations.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I don’t think the evidence is so strong there. I think nearly all the neighborhoods around the St Louis County (aside from Clayton), as well as all the East Side stops would show population loss surrounding their Metro stops.Auggie wrote:Except, one is a train and the other is a bike path.addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 23, 2025"bike path" = a complete reconstruction of North Grand including reduction, repaving, street trees, benches, wayfinding, bus infrastructure and prioritization, all new lighting/stop lights.
Regardless, they're both claiming to be what will redevelop the area. Simply stating fact, the Brickline will be done first and can show us if the City is competent enough to execute that promise.
Also, the neighborhoods that have a MetroLink station have grown by some 30% since 2000 despite the city's overall population loss of over 13%. We already have evidence that trains help STL grow.
This clearly shows a major difference between the city and the suburbs which is the point we are talking about.
Even more sad is a closed gas station at the foot of a $700M highway bridge.
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Ok but your original point was that we have evidence that the Metrolink helps neighborhoods grow. I’m saying we don’t considering there has been more population loss than gain along the line in the 30 years it’s been built. Even in the few places in the central corridor along the line that have grown, the evidence that the Metro drove that growth isn’t really there.Auggie wrote:Places that- say it with me- have not actually tried to get any development around their MetroLink stations.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I don’t think the evidence is so strong there. I think nearly all the neighborhoods around the St Louis County (aside from Clayton), as well as all the East Side stops would show population loss surrounding their Metro stops.Auggie wrote: Except, one is a train and the other is a bike path.
Also, the neighborhoods that have a MetroLink station have grown by some 30% since 2000 despite the city's overall population loss of over 13%. We already have evidence that trains help STL grow.
This clearly shows a major difference between the city and the suburbs which is the point we are talking about.
Every central neighborhood that has a Metro station grew from 2000 to 2020 except Skinker-Debaliviere, who's largest new development project didn't open until 2023.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025Ok but your original point was that we have evidence that the Metrolink helps neighborhoods grow. I’m saying we don’t considering there has been more population loss than gain along the line in the 30 years it’s been built. Even in the few places in the central corridor along the line that have grown, the evidence that the Metro drove that growth isn’t really there.Auggie wrote:Places that- say it with me- have not actually tried to get any development around their MetroLink stations.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I don’t think the evidence is so strong there. I think nearly all the neighborhoods around the St Louis County (aside from Clayton), as well as all the East Side stops would show population loss surrounding their Metro stops.
This clearly shows a major difference between the city and the suburbs which is the point we are talking about.
My original point was that the growth and development along the existing Metro line shows that the city can, in fact, develop off of infrastructure projects. For my point, the fact suburbs have not been able to do the same just further proves my point that the city is doing something differently than them.
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There’s definitely some decent examples of TOD along the line. Sunnen, Debaliviere, etc. Just responding to your original point of having evidence of the Metro driving population growth, which we don’t have.Auggie wrote:Every central neighborhood that has a Metro station grew from 2000 to 2020 except Skinker-Debaliviere, who's largest new development project didn't open until 2023.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025Ok but your original point was that we have evidence that the Metrolink helps neighborhoods grow. I’m saying we don’t considering there has been more population loss than gain along the line in the 30 years it’s been built. Even in the few places in the central corridor along the line that have grown, the evidence that the Metro drove that growth isn’t really there.Auggie wrote: Places that- say it with me- have not actually tried to get any development around their MetroLink stations.
This clearly shows a major difference between the city and the suburbs which is the point we are talking about.
My original point was that the growth and development along the existing Metro line shows that the city can, in fact, develop off of infrastructure projects. For my point, the fact suburbs have not been able to do the same just further proves my point that the city is doing something differently than them.
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General public doesn't realize how close all those apartments are to the Maplewood-Manchester stop because its out of sight, over the hill to the south but its less than a quarter mile. I walk .7 to the cortex or CWE station. Definitely a TOD there.
I'd venture to say that aside from a few notable exceptions, MetroLink stations actually repel more development than they attract. Even the CWE station is mostly surrounded by BJC parking garages. Let's highlight a few in or near the urban core...
Brentwood/I-64: An utter embarrassment- they need to start over from scratch if you ask me.
Maplewood: Pathetic.
University City-Big Bend: That handsome historic apartment building at Big Bend & FPP is completely vacant and deteriorating. What!
Wellston: Whole lotta nothin'.
Clayton-Forsyth: Mostly surrounded by empty fields and parking lots.
Richmond Heights (Galleria/The Boulevard): Totally lame and stupid and hostile to pedestrians.
Delmar: Jack s**t. But ya know, we've only had 32 years to make something happen here...
Central West End: Basically surrounded by parking garages.
Grand: +1 point for the new City Target, -1000 points for everything else.
Why TOD hasn't been more of a priority is a head-scratcher. Other cities would be all over these opportunities. Something is not working in St. Louis- I chalk it up to lame ass corporate, civic and municipal leadership with zero vision for the future.
Brentwood/I-64: An utter embarrassment- they need to start over from scratch if you ask me.
Maplewood: Pathetic.
University City-Big Bend: That handsome historic apartment building at Big Bend & FPP is completely vacant and deteriorating. What!
Wellston: Whole lotta nothin'.
Clayton-Forsyth: Mostly surrounded by empty fields and parking lots.
Richmond Heights (Galleria/The Boulevard): Totally lame and stupid and hostile to pedestrians.
Delmar: Jack s**t. But ya know, we've only had 32 years to make something happen here...
Central West End: Basically surrounded by parking garages.
Grand: +1 point for the new City Target, -1000 points for everything else.
Why TOD hasn't been more of a priority is a head-scratcher. Other cities would be all over these opportunities. Something is not working in St. Louis- I chalk it up to lame ass corporate, civic and municipal leadership with zero vision for the future.
Ironically, the neighborhood directly adjacent to the Demlar Loop station, West End, is one of the only North Side neighborhoods that saw growth since 2000.stlgasm wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I'd venture to say that aside from a few notable exceptions, MetroLink stations actually repel more development than they attract. Even the CWE station is mostly surrounded by BJC parking garages. Let's highlight a few in or near the urban core...
Brentwood/I-64: An utter embarrassment- they need to start over from scratch if you ask me.
Maplewood: Pathetic.
University City-Big Bend: That handsome historic apartment building at Big Bend & FPP is completely vacant and deteriorating. What!
Wellston: Whole lotta nothin'.
Clayton-Forsyth: Mostly surrounded by empty fields and parking lots.
Richmond Heights (Galleria/The Boulevard): Totally lame and stupid and hostile to pedestrians.
Delmar: Jack s**t. But ya know, we've only had 32 years to make something happen here...
Central West End: Basically surrounded by parking garages.
Grand: +1 point for the new City Target, -1000 points for everything else.
Why TOD hasn't been more of a priority is a head-scratcher. Other cities would be all over these opportunities. Something is not working in St. Louis- I chalk it up to lame ass corporate, civic and municipal leadership with zero vision for the future.
But that growth isn't in pretty generic apartment buildings, so i guess in your eyes, "nothing" has happened.
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I think we are missing the original point. There are A few examples of TOD popping up around our stations, which is great and can be attributed to the Metrolink. We should have a lot more of that than we do in both the city and county.
Trying to make the case to build the N-S because the current Red and Blue lines drove population growth in the neighborhoods it passes through just isn’t there. The data tells the opposite story. We’ve seen population growth in Midtown - Downtown but see a strong case to attribute that to the MetroLink.
Trying to make the case to build the N-S because the current Red and Blue lines drove population growth in the neighborhoods it passes through just isn’t there. The data tells the opposite story. We’ve seen population growth in Midtown - Downtown but see a strong case to attribute that to the MetroLink.
100%. It's quite pathetic. The opportunities are glaring at practically every station I mentioned in my previous post. So many idle, underutilized sites surrounding what should be our showpiece urban districts. A fundamental lack of vision, initiative, strategy, priorities and leadership.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I think we are missing the original point. There are A few examples of TOD popping up around our stations, which is great and can be attributed to the Metrolink. We should have a lot more of that than we do in both the city and county.
Trying to make the case to build the N-S because the current Red and Blue lines drove population growth in the neighborhoods it passes through just isn’t there. The data tells the opposite story. We’ve seen population growth in Midtown - Downtown but see a strong case to attribute that to the MetroLink.
"But that growth isn't in pretty generic apartment buildings, so i guess in your eyes, "nothing" has happened."
Auggie- were you not held as a baby or something? Do you need a friend? Always trying to pick a fight or one-up everyone else. That says a lot about you and it's sad. I'm not talking about "pretty generic apartment buildings", goober. I'm talking about any development whatsoever adjacent to the station. If you're in the Loop and walking to the Delmar station, you essentially have to walk through a dead zone of emptiness to get there. You're big on "facts" so I know you know this, Auggie. If you have eyes you can see that there is nothing but wasted potential immediately surrounding the Delmar station.
I'm old enough to remember when you said at 5:34 PM that the CWE station is "basically surrounded by parking garages".stlgasm wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025100%. It's quite pathetic. The opportunities are glaring at practically every station I mentioned in my previous post. So many idle, underutilized sites surrounding what should be our showpiece urban districts. A fundamental lack of vision, initiative, strategy, priorities and leadership.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I think we are missing the original point. There are A few examples of TOD popping up around our stations, which is great and can be attributed to the Metrolink. We should have a lot more of that than we do in both the city and county.
Trying to make the case to build the N-S because the current Red and Blue lines drove population growth in the neighborhoods it passes through just isn’t there. The data tells the opposite story. We’ve seen population growth in Midtown - Downtown but see a strong case to attribute that to the MetroLink.
"But that growth isn't in pretty generic apartment buildings, so i guess in your eyes, "nothing" has happened."
Auggie- were you not held as a baby or something? Do you need a friend? Always trying to pick a fight or one-up everyone else. That says a lot about you and it's sad. I'm not talking about "pretty generic apartment buildings", goober. I'm talking about any development whatsoever adjacent to the station. If you're in the Loop and walking to the Delmar station, you essentially have to walk through a dead zone of emptiness to get there. You're big on "facts" so I know you know this, Auggie. If you have eyes you can see that there is nothing but wasted potential immediately surrounding the Delmar station.
Delmar- Adjacent neighborhood has actually grown despite the rest of North City losing tens of thousands of people. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though, you're right.
Forest Park- tons of new specifically TOD built adjacent to it, along with a growing neighborhood.
CWE- You probably should go look around there, lots more than just parking garages, along with multiple new massive hospital and research buildings.
Cortex- It's pretty new so we don't have a ton to go off. A bit disappointed thus far. Doesn't help that there's a grain silo adjacent to it.
Grand- Steelcote district is directly adjacent to it and Midtown + SLU has seen tons of growth and new development.
Union Station to Laclede's Landing- Downtown has seen tons of residential growth in the years since MetroLink opened. Tons of residential conversions and redevelopment along with a handful of new developments all within walking distance to a Metro station. But again, I'm sure it's probably just a coincidence.
Most of those developments you mentioned happened in spite of their proximity to MetroLink, not because of it. I do love the Expo on DeBaliviere. Much more of that, please.Auggie wrote: ↑Mar 25, 2025I'm old enough to remember when you said at 5:34 PM that the CWE station is "basically surrounded by parking garages".stlgasm wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025100%. It's quite pathetic. The opportunities are glaring at practically every station I mentioned in my previous post. So many idle, underutilized sites surrounding what should be our showpiece urban districts. A fundamental lack of vision, initiative, strategy, priorities and leadership.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2025I think we are missing the original point. There are A few examples of TOD popping up around our stations, which is great and can be attributed to the Metrolink. We should have a lot more of that than we do in both the city and county.
Trying to make the case to build the N-S because the current Red and Blue lines drove population growth in the neighborhoods it passes through just isn’t there. The data tells the opposite story. We’ve seen population growth in Midtown - Downtown but see a strong case to attribute that to the MetroLink.
"But that growth isn't in pretty generic apartment buildings, so i guess in your eyes, "nothing" has happened."
Auggie- were you not held as a baby or something? Do you need a friend? Always trying to pick a fight or one-up everyone else. That says a lot about you and it's sad. I'm not talking about "pretty generic apartment buildings", goober. I'm talking about any development whatsoever adjacent to the station. If you're in the Loop and walking to the Delmar station, you essentially have to walk through a dead zone of emptiness to get there. You're big on "facts" so I know you know this, Auggie. If you have eyes you can see that there is nothing but wasted potential immediately surrounding the Delmar station.
Delmar- Adjacent neighborhood has actually grown despite the rest of North City losing tens of thousands of people. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though, you're right.
Forest Park- tons of new specifically TOD built adjacent to it, along with a growing neighborhood.
CWE- You probably should go look around there, lots more than just parking garages, along with multiple new massive hospital and research buildings.
Cortex- It's pretty new so we don't have a ton to go off. A bit disappointed thus far. Doesn't help that there's a grain silo adjacent to it.
Grand- Steelcote district is directly adjacent to it and Midtown + SLU has seen tons of growth and new development.
Union Station to Laclede's Landing- Downtown has seen tons of residential growth in the years since MetroLink opened. Tons of residential conversions and redevelopment along with a handful of new developments all within walking distance to a Metro station. But again, I'm sure it's probably just a coincidence.
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we haven't exactly had zoning codes conducive to building density near transit stations. you can't expect light rail to fulfill its potential if you're simultaneously gonna require 2 parking spaces per unit. st. louis builds light rail and then does nothing to support it or endorse it. build it and change the f*cking zoning codes so that developers don't have to build parking. tell NIMBYs to go f*ck themselves.
PREACH!! Why hasn't St. Louis addressed parking minimums by now? Even KC and Cincinnati amended their parking minimums, at least in certain neighborhoods. Once again, we're late to the party (we're not even at the party yet)!urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Mar 25, 2025we haven't exactly had zoning codes conducive to building density near transit stations. you can't expect light rail to fulfill its potential if you're simultaneously gonna require 2 parking spaces per unit. st. louis builds light rail and then does nothing to support it or endorse it. build it and change the f*cking zoning codes so that developers don't have to build parking. tell NIMBYs to go f*ck themselves.
Stl City is 1 per unit. Downtown doesn't have mins, FPSE has max of 1 per. I think the zoning changes along the Green line has 0.75. The proposed Delmar DeBaliviere FBD has 0.5. A city-wide zoning overhaul effort starts in May. Be sure to participate, because the NIMBYs will.