Wait . . . "Mutual combat" is a thing?
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While not in the sense of a "legal fist fight between consenting parties", if two people are shooting at each other, chances are, charges are likely not going to be issued against a surviving party.
If police are so special, pay them like they're special and maybe you'll get a better crop of officers. This is the most fundamental issue with American police. They get the expectations of a highly paid and educated force from people like you, but then they get paid like sh*t and treated like sh*t and then you get upset that they get employee rights like everyone else. SLMPD should be starting $70k, not $50k. A criminal justice degree should be required. But here we are without education requirements and with garbage pay and you don't even think they deserve basic employee rights.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2024Yes because police are regular ole employees. No difference between the police and janitors, iron workers, plumbers, etc. Shoot, when was the last time you didn’t see a plumber carrying 3 deadly weapons he can use with immunity?
This is the gyst I got from some officers I know. Cops getting put on the list for completely unsubstantiated or stupid reasons.Note Speak wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2024Unfortunately, that's not how Gardner built her Brady List. The glut of her list was based of procedural issues or personality conflicts. Once she left, they were properly addressed, to include training for some and termination for others.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 03, 2024Yup, if a cop has lied so much that s/he’s a useless witness for the prosecution, s/he should be fired. Unfortunately, the police have a union
100% agree with this. Police should be (A) highly paid reflecting the risk and stress, and (B) highly trained reflecting the degree of difficulty. Given those two conditions are met, then police should (c) be held accountable, including by greatly reducing the current "qualified immunity" regime. Might be you need a police union to guarantee A and B, but in practice they seem mainly concerned with preventing C regardless of A or B. Respect for police from the populace comes when C is evident to all; lack thereof gets us to our current predicament.Auggie wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2024If police are so special, pay them like they're special and maybe you'll get a better crop of officers. This is the most fundamental issue with American police. They get the expectations of a highly paid and educated force from people like you, but then they get paid like sh*t and treated like sh*t and then you get upset that they get employee rights like everyone else. SLMPD should be starting $70k, not $50k. A criminal justice degree should be required. But here we are without education requirements and with garbage pay and you don't even think they deserve basic employee rights.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2024Yes because police are regular ole employees. No difference between the police and janitors, iron workers, plumbers, etc. Shoot, when was the last time you didn’t see a plumber carrying 3 deadly weapons he can use with immunity?Auggie wrote: ↑Dec 04, 2024"Unfortunately, police have employee rights."
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Homicides as of today are at 142 (160 last year), if we average one every 2.42 days like we have YDT, we will finish at 150. although December weather could slow down that pace.
Almost all of the decrease in homicides has come from the north patrol, north west corner of the city. The Central patrol is frustratingly steady, area roughly Downtown to Carondelet
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Looking at the neighborhoods in the central and the crime mapping, looks like efforts really need heavy focus on Vanderlou, Dutchtown, and Downtown West (8 homicides is way too high for such an area). Also need to push harder in Benton Park West, Gravois Park, Midtown and Downtown - no reason for those neighborhoods to have anything but the random domestic things, petty crime or whatnot.addxb2 wrote: ↑Dec 13, 2024Almost all of the decrease in homicides has come from the north patrol, north west corner of the city. The Central patrol is frustratingly steady, area roughly Downtown to Carondelet
Screenshot 2024-12-12 204412.jpgScreenshot 2024-12-12 204330.jpg
On the positive side - neighborhoods that I have wondered why there hasn’t been substantial repopulation, momentum and cohesive development are looking much better crime wise, so maybe they will be prime for new development and a rise - Covenant Blu Grand Center, Fountain Park (how has this not been redeveloped yet), O Fallon Park, Vandeventer.
Also worth noting that the historical crime hot spots of public housing have done okay this year.
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Crime on regional bases...we are in the middle of the pack for the 40 largest MSAs
^Hmm, I have to wonder about these rankings. First of all, Pittsburgh and Kansas City are conspicuously missing from the lists altogether. Also, I find it pretty hard to believe that Minneapolis and Austin have higher total crime rates than St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit and Cleveland. Come on, now, let's get real. Seems like there must be discrepancies in how each metro compiles and reports their crime data.
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The ones that are missing, like those above and Chicago is because not all police depts in those regions submitted the data. This is data from 1000s of departments so it takes a while to get it all in
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Right!? Get this data out of here. We suck. I hear about it all the time from the Business Journal and Karens.stlgasm wrote: ↑Dec 13, 2024^Hmm, I have to wonder about these rankings. First of all, Pittsburgh and Kansas City are conspicuously missing from the lists altogether. Also, I find it pretty hard to believe that Minneapolis and Austin have higher total crime rates than St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit and Cleveland. Come on, now, let's get real. Seems like there must be discrepancies in how each metro compiles and reports their crime data.
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This is exactly why the way data is reported is unfair for STL, it creates a wrong perception of crime. I'm sure that if most of the cities that are considered safer than St Louis reported their crime on a much smaller geographic area where most of it happened, then per capita statistics would be much worse.stlgasm wrote: ↑Dec 13, 2024^Hmm, I have to wonder about these rankings. First of all, Pittsburgh and Kansas City are conspicuously missing from the lists altogether. Also, I find it pretty hard to believe that Minneapolis and Austin have higher total crime rates than St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit and Cleveland. Come on, now, let's get real. Seems like there must be discrepancies in how each metro compiles and reports their crime data.
Memphis is what St. Louis thinks it is.
Nashville is what Kansas City thinks it is.
Moral of the story? A consolidated regional government and low income tax isn’t everything.
Nashville is what Kansas City thinks it is.
Moral of the story? A consolidated regional government and low income tax isn’t everything.
^ Also the "Civic Attitude". St. Louis thinks its worse than it is, and KC thinks its better than it is.
I realize St. Louis's crime statistics are often unfairly skewed due to our relatively tiny city borders (even though Boston, Pittsburgh and San Francisco have smaller city borders than STL, yet all have MUCH lower crime rates), but I think it's important that we get a full picture of how these metro crime stats are collected too. I don't doubt that St. Louis falls in middle of the pack when entire metro areas are compared (vs city limits only), but I have a really a hard time believing Minneapolis and Austin have higher metro crime rates than STL, Detroit, Baltimore and Cleveland. It just doesn't make sense to me and I think it would be helpful to know specifically how this data was collected. Is it possible that some metros report only their core urbanized counties, while others report the entire metro? Or perhaps two state metros such as St. Louis only reflect the Missouri side crime stats and not the Illinois side? DB - can you provide the methodology used to calculate these rankings? Is it consistent for all metros listed?
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From the East West Gateways long running Where We Stand research https://www.ewgateway.org/research-cent ... data-2024/
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Per the data they have lower violent crime rates and higher property crime rates. Is it so hard to believe they have higher property crime rates? Things like car break ins, say. I suspect SF has a much higher property crime rate right now simply on the power of car break in rings systematically stealing bluetooth connected devices. (Kind of like we had a really bad rash of property crime when the catalytic converter ring was at its highest.) Don't get me wrong. I like Minneapolis from my experience there. But it's a city like any other. There's no avoiding some of that stuff. Property crime happens, and if people think a place is safe and behave accordingly . . . the uptick can be brutal from time to time.stlgasm wrote: ↑Dec 13, 2024I realize St. Louis's crime statistics are often unfairly skewed due to our relatively tiny city borders (even though Boston, Pittsburgh and San Francisco have smaller city borders than STL, yet all have MUCH lower crime rates), but I think it's important that we get a full picture of how these metro crime stats are collected too. I don't doubt that St. Louis falls in middle of the pack when entire metro areas are compared (vs city limits only), but I have a really a hard time believing Minneapolis and Austin have higher metro crime rates than STL, Detroit, Baltimore and Cleveland. It just doesn't make sense to me and I think it would be helpful to know specifically how this data was collected. Is it possible that some metros report only their core urbanized counties, while others report the entire metro? Or perhaps two state metros such as St. Louis only reflect the Missouri side crime stats and not the Illinois side? DB - can you provide the methodology used to calculate these rankings? Is it consistent for all metros listed?
I don't see how Memphis, or any city for that matter, could be literally twice as dangerous as the next-ranked city. Something about these numbers is fishy.
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I think this data being at the MSA level is what’s causing that.
Memphis, for example, has 45% of its population living within the city of Memphis, whereas the St Louis MSA has about 10% of its population living in the actual city.
So Memphis has far less of a population living in lower crime suburbs to water down the higher crime rates in its urban core than St Louis.
This data is flawed in the same way St Louis’ crime rates are often reported, just inverted.
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Memphis, for example, has 45% of its population living within the city of Memphis, whereas the St Louis MSA has about 10% of its population living in the actual city.
So Memphis has far less of a population living in lower crime suburbs to water down the higher crime rates in its urban core than St Louis.
This data is flawed in the same way St Louis’ crime rates are often reported, just inverted.
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KC is a great example of how surface level stats are what matter to people.
KC is the “bigger” city and less crime city - because of those limits above. And guess what, people outside of places like the forum don’t look underneath that. KC metro then grows, and ours does not. We need that incorporation with the rest of StL county (and annex) or a complete merger - we would be the 10th “biggest” city as it stands with a complete merger.
It’d also be interesting to see what StL city density would be compared to KC with the KC limits. The inner ring StL county is on par with StL city density (which is impressive if you look at the density of our peers), so I would guess we’d still be somewhere around 4,000/sq mi. KC is 1,600/sq mi now. It’s actually pretty crazy their population is only 500,000 with those city limits.
