urbanSTL

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

Cell phone geofenced data for non sporting event days during the normal summer game is 75,000-110,000 and 150,000 with a cardinals game. 200,000 with cardinals, blues, city sc and volleyball like this past weekend.

Ok, but that's not every day.  and, bigger picture, I'm skeptical of that geofenced data.  I'm there DT, walking DT streets a lot. Those 100+K people must be hiding.  Absent a sporting event, I never see them.  

And, this is connected to the City Garden restaurant convo because if DT STL truly had 100K+ people each and every day, the City Garden could support a brick-and-mortar restaurant. 

I talk to visitors literally daily at the Arch grounds (7000-10000 daily visitors in summer time) and what is the main take away about downtown?  It’s clean, it’s safe, there is a lot to do and wish there was more shopping options.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

soulardx wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

Cell phone geofenced data for non sporting event days during the normal summer game is 75,000-110,000 and 150,000 with a cardinals game. 200,000 with cardinals, blues, city sc and volleyball like this past weekend.

Ok, but that's not every day.  and, bigger picture, I'm skeptical of that geofenced data.  I'm there, walking DT streets a lot. Those 100+K people must be hiding.  Absent a sporting event, I never see them.

The good ole “I didn’t see it” it didn’t happen argument is always though to beat.   We also have hotel data, restaurant sales tax by zip codes, visitor data to union station, arch, city museum ect

Ok, show your work on "100,000-200,000 people every day" then.  It's the daily thing I'm taking issue with.

And, it'd be ideal, if the data didn't come from a downtown booster organization who likely inflates the numbers for understandable PR purposes. 

soulardx wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

Cell phone geofenced data for non sporting event days during the normal summer game is 75,000-110,000 and 150,000 with a cardinals game. 200,000 with cardinals, blues, city sc and volleyball like this past weekend.

And, this is connected to the City Garden restaurant convo because if DT STL truly had 100K+ people each and every day, the City Garden could support a brick-and-mortar restaurant. 

As the Terrace View owner said in 2011, in the winter it was too cold to use the patio and he had boat load of cancellations in the hot summers and the indoor space was too small to sustain a high end sit down restaurant. It clearly needs to be a fast casual, And the fast casual next to it in Peabody building does very well.

goat314 wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

soulardx wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 03, 2023

Downtown is the only 2 sq mile area in the region that gets 100,000-200,000 people every day from workers, visitors, conventions, residents, sporting events etc.    coffee place that was open 8am to 2pm wouldn’t work anywhere

Downtown STL has 100K to 200K people on the streets *every day*?  DB, I know you're a huge DT booster and I respect it, but dial it back a little. LOL.  Absent a sporting event and post Covid, I'd put that number closer to like 20K for ~225 days a year.  20K all spread out over those 2 square miles.

I have an office just east of the soccer stadium and other than the workers on the Butler Bros building, there's literally no people walking the DT streets there.  maybe some homeless dudes. tumbleweeds mostly. 

Lastly, I think the City Garden is best served by regular/rotating food trucks - which it seems to have -- rather than a brick-and-mortar restaurant.  Just not enough *daily* critical mass of people-on-the-streets for a brick-and-mortar restaurant. 

Yes, I also find it hard to believe downtown St. Louis has that many people daily. It would be packed to the brim everyday and we would definitely have full storefronts. I was just in Atlanta and Dallas last week, people talk about the sprawl in these cities, but their downtowns were active, attractive, and head and shoulders above St. Louis. Even Downtown Birmingham had a cleaner and more put together Downtown than St. Louis, it truly is embarrassing. St. Louis has wonderful neighborhoods, but Downtown is definitely not our strength and sadly that's how most visitors will assess your city.

yep. agree.  to be sure, Wash Ave has all kinds of locally-owned retail but, each time I walk by those stores, I see no customers.  Are these businesses real?  LOL

soulardx wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

goat314 wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

soulardx wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

Downtown STL has 100K to 200K people on the streets *every day*?  DB, I know you're a huge DT booster and I respect it, but dial it back a little. LOL.  Absent a sporting event and post Covid, I'd put that number closer to like 20K for ~225 days a year.  20K all spread out over those 2 square miles.

I have an office just east of the soccer stadium and other than the workers on the Butler Bros building, there's literally no people walking the DT streets there.  maybe some homeless dudes. tumbleweeds mostly. 

Lastly, I think the City Garden is best served by regular/rotating food trucks - which it seems to have -- rather than a brick-and-mortar restaurant.  Just not enough *daily* critical mass of people-on-the-streets for a brick-and-mortar restaurant. 

Yes, I also find it hard to believe downtown St. Louis has that many people daily. It would be packed to the brim everyday and we would definitely have full storefronts. I was just in Atlanta and Dallas last week, people talk about the sprawl in these cities, but their downtowns were active, attractive, and head and shoulders above St. Louis. Even Downtown Birmingham had a cleaner and more put together Downtown than St. Louis, it truly is embarrassing. St. Louis has wonderful neighborhoods, but Downtown is definitely not our strength and sadly that's how most visitors will assess your city.

yep. agree.  to be sure, Wash Ave has all kinds of locally-owned retail but, each time I walk by those stores, I see no customers.  Are these businesses real?  LOL

Few a legit money laundering operations like DNA clothing store

It can be true that both tons of people are Downtown every day and that few people walk the streets. My office building is packed every day, but people rarely leave the building except to drive home and there are hardly any people walking around except on game days and during conferences. Something needs to happen to change Downtown workers into people who walk around and support Downtown on a regular basis.

Also, I'm from Birmingham, and Birmingham's Downtown is not cleaner or nicer than ours. We have much more going for us here.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

It can be true that both tons of people are Downtown every day and that few people walk the streets. My office building is packed every day, but people rarely leave the building except to drive home and there are hardly any people walking around except on game days and during conferences. Something needs to happen to change Downtown workers into people who walk around and support Downtown on a regular basis.

Also, I'm from Birmingham, and Birmingham's Downtown is not cleaner or nicer than ours. We have much more going for us here.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Yes, absolutely possible that all those DT workers don't leave the building.  

Suppose that's been an ongoing theme of mine here for a long long time - we need to do things to increase the vibrancy of DT street life 365 days a year.  Everything urbanists love follows from pedestrians regularly walking DT streets.  Subsidize full-time, non-seasonal job creation rather than silver bullet BS and attractions that overly appeal to suburban tourists who visit DT STL in 4 hour spurts a few times a year.

MORE PEOPLE WALKING DT STREETS 

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

It can be true that both tons of people are Downtown every day and that few people walk the streets. My office building is packed every day, but people rarely leave the building except to drive home and there are hardly any people walking around except on game days and during conferences. Something needs to happen to change Downtown workers into people who walk around and support Downtown on a regular basis.

Also, I'm from Birmingham, and Birmingham's Downtown is not cleaner or nicer than ours. We have much more going for us here.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I was just there 2 days ago and it's a very nice downtown. When was the last time you were there?

goat314 wrote:

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

It can be true that both tons of people are Downtown every day and that few people walk the streets. My office building is packed every day, but people rarely leave the building except to drive home and there are hardly any people walking around except on game days and during conferences. Something needs to happen to change Downtown workers into people who walk around and support Downtown on a regular basis.

Also, I'm from Birmingham, and Birmingham's Downtown is not cleaner or nicer than ours. We have much more going for us here.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I was just there 2 days ago and it's a very nice downtown. When was the last time you were there?

A couple months. It is a nice Downtown, I'm just saying STL's is better. Birmingham's lacks the architecture, restaurants, entertainment facilities, and more that we have. It also has a major problem with building vacancies and lack of retail similar to here. Not saying this is you, but it can also be confusing to some as to what is actually "Downtown" in Birmingham as the neighborhoods there aren't as neatly separated as in STL.

I think it might also be a perception thing. People in STL are highly critical of Downtown and the city in general, but people visiting from out of town that I meet have mostly only good things to say about it. That doesn't mean we couldn't learn a thing or two from Birmingham though — they've done a great job of improving the city recently.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

goat314 wrote:

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

It can be true that both tons of people are Downtown every day and that few people walk the streets. My office building is packed every day, but people rarely leave the building except to drive home and there are hardly any people walking around except on game days and during conferences. Something needs to happen to change Downtown workers into people who walk around and support Downtown on a regular basis.

Also, I'm from Birmingham, and Birmingham's Downtown is not cleaner or nicer than ours. We have much more going for us here.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I was just there 2 days ago and it's a very nice downtown. When was the last time you were there?

A couple months. It is a nice Downtown, I'm just saying STL's is better. Birmingham's lacks the architecture, restaurants, entertainment facilities, and more that we have. It also has a major problem with building vacancies and lack of retail similar to here. Not saying this is you, but it can also be confusing to some as to what is actually "Downtown" in Birmingham as the neighborhoods there aren't as neatly separated as in STL.

I think it might also be a perception thing. People in STL are highly critical of Downtown and the city in general, but people visiting from out of town that I meet have mostly only good things to say about it. That doesn't mean we couldn't learn a thing or two from Birmingham though — they've done a great job of improving the city recently.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I see what your saying. It just seems they had way more civic pride and upkeep than Downtown St. Louis. Everything was very clean and orderly. Like that bride with the blue light on it at night, the streetscapes were also very much better maintained. There were also a lot of people out for a Sunday night. A big problem with downtown St. Louis is that it's so freaking huge. St. Louis literally has the downtown of a city the size of Dallas or Atlanta without the obvious investment. 

goat314 wrote:

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

goat314 wrote: I was just there 2 days ago and it's a very nice downtown. When was the last time you were there?

A couple months. It is a nice Downtown, I'm just saying STL's is better. Birmingham's lacks the architecture, restaurants, entertainment facilities, and more that we have. It also has a major problem with building vacancies and lack of retail similar to here. Not saying this is you, but it can also be confusing to some as to what is actually "Downtown" in Birmingham as the neighborhoods there aren't as neatly separated as in STL.

I think it might also be a perception thing. People in STL are highly critical of Downtown and the city in general, but people visiting from out of town that I meet have mostly only good things to say about it. That doesn't mean we couldn't learn a thing or two from Birmingham though — they've done a great job of improving the city recently.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I see what your saying. It just seems they had way more civic pride and upkeep than Downtown St. Louis. Everything was very clean and orderly. Like that bride with the blue light on it at night, the streetscapes were also very much better maintained. There were also a lot of people out for a Sunday night. A big problem with downtown St. Louis is that it's so freaking huge. St. Louis literally has the downtown of a city the size of Dallas or Atlanta without the obvious investment. 

Yeah that's a good point. They have less to work with there, so while there's less to do, there are also fewer bad parts. Here, we've got a lot more good happening, but also a lot of more bad, and people love to focus on the bad. Doesn't matter how amazing the area around One Metro is when the Railway Exchange building and its condemned garage are sitting empty next door.

The civic pride in Bham is a new thing, though. Just a couple years ago, the city-suburb divide was just as bad if not worse than here in many ways. I think Mayor Woodfin is a large part of that — it helps when there's a unifying figure that actually works hard and shows that he cares about his city.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

goat314 wrote:

Suds wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

A couple months. It is a nice Downtown, I'm just saying STL's is better. Birmingham's lacks the architecture, restaurants, entertainment facilities, and more that we have. It also has a major problem with building vacancies and lack of retail similar to here. Not saying this is you, but it can also be confusing to some as to what is actually "Downtown" in Birmingham as the neighborhoods there aren't as neatly separated as in STL.

I think it might also be a perception thing. People in STL are highly critical of Downtown and the city in general, but people visiting from out of town that I meet have mostly only good things to say about it. That doesn't mean we couldn't learn a thing or two from Birmingham though — they've done a great job of improving the city recently.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I see what your saying. It just seems they had way more civic pride and upkeep than Downtown St. Louis. Everything was very clean and orderly. Like that bride with the blue light on it at night, the streetscapes were also very much better maintained. There were also a lot of people out for a Sunday night. A big problem with downtown St. Louis is that it's so freaking huge. St. Louis literally has the downtown of a city the size of Dallas or Atlanta without the obvious investment. 

Yeah that's a good point. They have less to work with there, so while there's less to do, there are also fewer bad parts. Here, we've got a lot more good happening, but also a lot of more bad, and people love to focus on the bad. Doesn't matter how amazing the area around One Metro is when the Railway Exchange building and its condemned garage are sitting empty next door.

The civic pride in Bham is a new thing, though. Just a couple years ago, the city-suburb divide was just as bad if not worse than here in many ways. I think Mayor Woodfin is a large part of that — it helps when there's a unifying figure that actually works hard and shows that he cares about his city.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Good point. St. Louis also has to deal with a legal city and county divide. Nothing like Clayon to deal with or the I-270 corridor. One thing I noticed about Dallas and Atlanta is their major F500 seem like they want to be downtown. The infrastructure in Dallas (and Texas in general) is also first class. Coming into downtown St. Louis, you see shoddy highway infrastructure, crumbling warehouses, bridges deteriorating with graffiti, no landscaping, poorly lit areas, vacant lots. It gives the impression that nobody gives a damn about the city. It's really pathetic. I really wonder if leadership in St. Louis is really that apathetic or they think nothing can be done?

If we want to be honest the only good way to fix a downtown freeway is to remove it

Downtown Dallas is literally one of the worst downtowns I've ever seen, it's a desolate ghost town after hours.   DT Atlanta isn't much better.  STL has MUCH bigger bones than any of those cities, most cities actually. 

cteclipse wrote:Downtown Dallas is literally one of the worst downtowns I've ever seen, it's a desolate ghost town after hours.   DT Atlanta isn't much better.  STL has MUCH bigger bones than any of those cities, most cities actually. 

Bones aren't much help if you don't have any skin and organs.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

cteclipse wrote: ↑

Apr 05, 2023

Downtown Dallas is literally one of the worst downtowns I've ever seen, it's a desolate ghost town after hours.   DT Atlanta isn't much better.  STL has MUCH bigger bones than any of those cities, most cities actually. 

Maybe years ago. I was just in Dallas a few nights ago and it was very active. The whole city was very active. Atlanta and Dallas both have nicer downtowns than St. Louis, they are on another level in terms of urban development. It doesn't matter if St. Louis has better bones if there isn't any meat on them.

Ok we get it!!! Texas has like 30 million people compared to Missouri’s barely 6 million neither are even comparable by any means. St.Louis cant grow if Missouri can’t grow & vice versa. I’m done hearing about how awful St.Louis is from former expats you left now move on and enjoy where you are now. From my visits to other cities all the hype is hype & good hype is contagious St.Louis can learn to feed on that hype to not get caught up in everyone’s doom gloom bullsh*t. St.Louis Region needs to focus on the people that live here now. If people want to move here then they will that’s that. There’ll be a day when Charlotte Austin Atlanta Dallas etc will begin to stop seeing population growth and either become stagnant or decline. Anyways St.Louis means well but half the people that live here treat it like sh*t so what do you expect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Downtown is now governed by Aldridge and Spencer. Both are politically experienced, highly engaged in the issues, and generally effective managers.

IMO, a pretty great thing for Downtown.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

soulardx wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2023

Cell phone geofenced data for non sporting event days during the normal summer game is 75,000-110,000 and 150,000 with a cardinals game. 200,000 with cardinals, blues, city sc and volleyball like this past weekend.

And, this is connected to the City Garden restaurant convo because if DT STL truly had 100K+ people each and every day, the City Garden could support a brick-and-mortar restaurant. 

As the Terrace View owner said in 2011, in the winter it was too cold to use the patio and he had boat load of cancellations in the hot summers and the indoor space was too small to sustain a high end sit down restaurant.   It clearly needs to be a fast casual, And the fast casual next to it in Peabody building does very well.

Death In The Afternoon seemed to do okay for a couple years. Didn't the owners just close it (and sell Blood & Sand) because they were moving into some kind of point-of-sale system development instead?

I think discussion of other downtowns has a place in this thread. Comparing and contrasting is very useful. I for one walked all around downtown Minneapolis this weekend, another fantastic downtown. 
Takeaways

• Despite highway encirclement, it has excellent neighborhood connections in almost all directions, missing middle isn't really missing here.
• Parking is hard to find and expensive which has led to transit being far more accepted in the zeitgeist than in STL.
• Major sports venues here aren't surrounded by surface parking lots, it's amazing to see
• Their theater district is downtown, great node of vibrancy 
• The city faces the river with an excellent dense neighborhood on the other side. Stone Arch Bridge is such a fantastic piece of connective tissue (and only a little bit shorter than the Eads)
• Grade separated bike lanes EVERYWHERE.
• Snow removal on sidewalks and bike lanes is prompt.
• Their light rail system is the same style as the N/S Metrolink, having ridden it a few times now I would say it feels pretty effective. Starting to face the same "perception of safety issues" as Metrolink though.
• Strong retail compared to downtown STL but definitely getting crushed overall. Major anchors like Marshalls and Nordstrom Rack are the most recent departures.
• Skywalk system is cool, but retail inside is getting crushed, vacancy has to be somewhere in the 40-45% range. Probably a result of the work from home revolution. There are definitely still some cool areas like the IDS Center Plaza, but just as many half-dead indoor plazas. Even a whole mall that is basically dead. Also, after 5-6pm the system becomes largely unusable because random buildings will lock their doors. The smaller system in Des Moines (which faces many of the same problems) at least requires the skywalk system to remain open until like 1am or something.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Apr 05, 2023

• Stone Arch Bridge is such a fantastic piece of connective tissue (and only a little bit shorter than the Eads)

Minneapolis is a pleasant enough town. I wouldn't personally make the trade, but I don't think someone would be foolish for doing so. That said, I will take issue with one minor point. The Stone Arch Bridge, while lovely, is nothing like the Eads Bridge. It's less than half the length, a quarter of the height, narrower, and, with only a fraction of the clear span. It's a nice bridge. Don't get me wrong. It's a good path to walk across a scenic spot on the river and look at the waterfall. But Eads is a damned engineering marvel. It looms over you, tells you it's tamed a wonder of the universe, that it means business, carries legions, and ties a nation together. It's an absolute statement. They're barely even the same species. The stone arch bridge would have been quite impressive in ancient Rome, but not quite record breaking even then. And what's more? Eads is actually older! (Just to clear up that one minor point.)

Sorry, back to the usual ranting.