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PostFeb 26, 2023#151

^ That genie is already out of the bottle.   Between the Feds and the huge subsidies being offered by the states the question as one journalist has put it, believe WSJ, are we building a huge amount of over capacity?  Can't find link to article but it was interesting as the journalist layed out production capacities for autos and batteries on proposed plants being subsidized   The ironic part it is a lot of red to purple states leading the charge in hand outs from Kansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, NC, Kentucky, Tennessee to Michigan putting huge subsidies behind EV future.   I think Georgia's subsidy to Rivian was one the biggest state subsidies in US history only to be topped by Michigan to the big automakers.  The politics behind it amazes me because the pot calling the kettle black can pretty much be applied to everyone on corporate subsidies & handouts as it relates to the EV future.
.
On another note, I get the idea of building out a better transit system but I do believe EV is truly a good step going forward  as It takes a huge part of transporting people and goods in our country from a finite air polluting resource to giving options by electrifying transportation with machines that simply take less parts and easier to build.   Doesn't get rid of all the carbon but the change will be huge.  On top of it, already some significant industrial dollars are going into some sizeable US battery recycling facilities.   

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PostFeb 27, 2023#152

^Oh don't get me wrong, I don't hate electric vehicles. I've got a toe in the hybrid water, at least. But as a policy matter I want I'd prefer to see us giving more support to transit and I'm not too concerned with where St. Louis stands on electric car charging stations. I've got a little bit of a car guy in me. I love driving. I understand the siren song. I worry that they're helping to "greenwash" a mode of transportation that isn't all that healthy. They're a small step forward and a big step sideways. (That helps us avoid dealing with the myriad problems of confronting all the damage that car culture has done.)

But in the end, I am complaining about this stuff from the driver's seat of a completely impractical roller skate of a roadster. (Or maybe a "sensible" hybrid when I need to carry something larger than a briefcase.)

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PostFeb 27, 2023#153

stlgasm wrote:
Feb 26, 2023
Yikes, this is pathetic.  St. Louis ranks dead last in number of EV charging stations per capita out of the 50 largest metropolitan areas, and we rank pretty sh*tty in other EV categories too:

Most and Least EV-Friendly Places to Live in America
https://www.iseecars.com/ev-chargers-study
Would be even worse if they actually went out to measure *functioning* chargers. About 50% of the time I try to use a public charger in STL, it is broken. 

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PostFeb 27, 2023#154

stlgasm wrote:
Feb 26, 2023
Yikes, this is pathetic.  St. Louis ranks dead last in number of EV charging stations per capita out of the 50 largest metropolitan areas, and we rank pretty sh*tty in other EV categories too:

Most and Least EV-Friendly Places to Live in America
https://www.iseecars.com/ev-chargers-study
Why not measure chargers just in the city vs metro like with crime? 

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PostFeb 27, 2023#155

How accurate can a ranking of "EV Friendliness" be if they don't take into account what percentage of EV owners in a city have charging infrastructure set up at home or at their apartment building? The amount of traditional vehicle drivers that use public gas stations to refill their car is approximately 99.9%. The amount of EV drivers that rely on public chargers is <20%.

Maybe STL still lags when you look at the overall picture, but simply looking at the number of public chargers doesn't really tell the story.

And the majority of the time, the functionality of the station is handled by the manufacturer, meaning it has little to do with the city or property owner if the unit isn't working. There isn't much they can do if the provider won't fix it.

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PostFeb 27, 2023#156

symphonicpoet wrote:
Feb 27, 2023
^Oh don't get me wrong, I don't hate electric vehicles. I've got a toe in the hybrid water, at least. But as a policy matter I want I'd prefer to see us giving more support to transit and I'm not too concerned with where St. Louis stands on electric car charging stations. I've got a little bit of a car guy in me. I love driving. I understand the siren song. I worry that they're helping to "greenwash" a mode of transportation that isn't all that healthy. They're a small step forward and a big step sideways. (That helps us avoid dealing with the myriad problems of confronting all the damage that car culture has done.)

But in the end, I am complaining about this stuff from the driver's seat of a completely impractical roller skate of a roadster. (Or maybe a "sensible" hybrid when I need to carry something larger than a briefcase.)
EVs play into the broader liberal project of offloading responsibility from high-level decision-makers and onto individuals. As inland America becomes a desert and coastal towns are obliterated by flooding, the several dozen billionaires who control everything will tearily blame consumers for not buying enough $40k electric cars for their commutes to the fracking factory.

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PostFeb 27, 2023#157

MarkHaversham wrote:
Feb 27, 2023
symphonicpoet wrote:
Feb 27, 2023
^Oh don't get me wrong, I don't hate electric vehicles. I've got a toe in the hybrid water, at least. But as a policy matter I want I'd prefer to see us giving more support to transit and I'm not too concerned with where St. Louis stands on electric car charging stations. I've got a little bit of a car guy in me. I love driving. I understand the siren song. I worry that they're helping to "greenwash" a mode of transportation that isn't all that healthy. They're a small step forward and a big step sideways. (That helps us avoid dealing with the myriad problems of confronting all the damage that car culture has done.)

But in the end, I am complaining about this stuff from the driver's seat of a completely impractical roller skate of a roadster. (Or maybe a "sensible" hybrid when I need to carry something larger than a briefcase.)
EVs play into the broader liberal project of offloading responsibility from high-level decision-makers and onto individuals. As inland America becomes a desert and coastal towns are obliterated by flooding, the several dozen billionaires who control everything will tearily blame consumers for not buying enough $40k electric cars for their commutes to the fracking factory.
"I am only saying this because I care: There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing." 
                                      - Chris Knight (Val Kilmer), Real Genius

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PostFeb 27, 2023#158

^Oh, guilty as charged, your honor!

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PostFeb 28, 2023#159

Electric cars kill people just as easily as those driven by internal combustion engines.

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PostFeb 28, 2023#160

Maybe a bit more due to their weight and faster acceleration. Moving the tailpipe emissions to elsewhere is great, better of course if the electricity is made by windmills, etc. Produced locally to a greater proportion than the oil we use (not hard to beat zero). More fine particulates from braking the heavier vehicles though. More damage to streets and roads from the extra weight. They are quieter, a great thing too. Cheaper to maintain.

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PostFeb 28, 2023#161

quincunx wrote:
Feb 28, 2023
Maybe a bit more due to their weight and faster acceleration. Moving the tailpipe emissions to elsewhere is great, better of course if the electricity is made by windmills, etc. Produced locally to a greater proportion than the oil we use (not hard to beat zero). More fine particulates from braking the heavier vehicles though. More damage to streets and roads from the extra weight. They are quieter, a great thing too. Cheaper to maintain.
One of the great things about an EV is that if you drive them properly, you'll rarely be stepping on the brakes (rather using regenerative braking).

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PostFeb 28, 2023#162

kipfilet wrote:
Feb 28, 2023
quincunx wrote:
Feb 28, 2023
Maybe a bit more due to their weight and faster acceleration. Moving the tailpipe emissions to elsewhere is great, better of course if the electricity is made by windmills, etc. Produced locally to a greater proportion than the oil we use (not hard to beat zero). More fine particulates from braking the heavier vehicles though. More damage to streets and roads from the extra weight. They are quieter, a great thing too. Cheaper to maintain.
One of the great things about an EV is that if you drive them properly, you'll rarely be stepping on the brakes (rather using regenerative braking).
My understanding is that stepping on the brake pedal uses regenerative braking as a component of its operation, so rather than avoiding touching the brake pedal what matters is not stomping on the brakes at the last minute and forcing the car to fully engage the pads on top of the reversed motor.

Edit: Not touching the brake pedal at all in a stopping situation seems like a safety risk if e.g. the car in front stops shorter than expected.

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PostFeb 28, 2023#163

But can someone please explain average regenerative efficiency as a function of miles driven and highway speed to account for what's lost to waste heat and noise.  Maybe we should dig into the net carbon footprint from a cradle to grave lifecycle cost perspective.  Or we could stay out of the weeds and just accept that while EVs are a net improvement owning one isn't inherently virtuous and in fact generally doubles downs on a lifestyle that is ultimately unsustainable regardless of power plant.

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PostFeb 28, 2023#164

Referring to internal combustion engines as "motors" has always been a pet peeve of mine. Now that so many vehicles do indeed have motors in them, I'm finding myself in a bit of an awkward position.

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PostMar 01, 2023#165

framer wrote:
Feb 28, 2023
Referring to internal combustion engines as "motors" has always been a pet peeve of mine. Now that so many vehicles do indeed have motors in them, I'm finding myself in a bit of an awkward position.
In different languages the terms are interchangeable.

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PostMar 01, 2023#166

flipz wrote:
Mar 01, 2023
framer wrote:
Feb 28, 2023
Referring to internal combustion engines as "motors" has always been a pet peeve of mine. Now that so many vehicles do indeed have motors in them, I'm finding myself in a bit of an awkward position.
In different languages the terms are interchangeable.
One of those languages is American English, per NASA from 1965:

engine. A machine or apparatus that converts energy, especially heat energy, into work. Also called motor. 
motor. See engine.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19660001124
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19660001124/downloads/19660001124.pdf

And the American Heritage Dictionary:


mo·tor  (mōtər)

n.
1. Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.
2. A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=motor

en·gine (ĕnjĭn)

n.
1.
a. A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion.
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=engine

And Merriam-Webster:

motor
1 of 3
noun
mo·tor ˈmō-tər 

1
: one that imparts motion
specifically : PRIME MOVER

2
: any of various power units that develop energy or impart motion: such as
a
: a small compact engine
b
INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
especially : a gasoline engine
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motor




Maybe a lot of previously held beliefs are also wrong?

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PostMar 01, 2023#167


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PostMar 01, 2023#168

Dang. Well, they'll always be engines to me.😃

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PostMar 01, 2023#169

framer wrote:
Mar 01, 2023
Dang. Well, they'll always be engines to me.😃
Or, given information suggesting otherwise, you could attempt to update your knowledge base.
  

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PostMar 01, 2023#170

At the end of the day language is a living thing and the way we use it dictates meaning as much as meaning dictates the way we use it. 'Sall good.

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PostMar 01, 2023#171

STLEnginerd wrote:
Feb 28, 2023
But can someone please explain average regenerative efficiency as a function of miles driven and highway speed to account for what's lost to waste heat and noise.  Maybe we should dig into the net carbon footprint from a cradle to grave lifecycle cost perspective.  Or we could stay out of the weeds and just accept that while EVs are a net improvement owning one isn't inherently virtuous and in fact generally doubles downs on a lifestyle that is ultimately unsustainable regardless of power plant.
Cradle to grave lifecycle isn't good for EVs, probably actually worse than ICE vehicles, largely due the production and (non) recyclability of the batteris. The picture gets worse if you include the added cost of infrastructure, e.g., charging stations, plus the extra road maintenance/replacement necessary to deal with EVs on average being heavier than their ICE counterparts.

The chief benefit of EVs is they (in theory) permit the status quo to continue indefinitely while enabling the sanctimonious liberals who can afford them to pretend they're not part of the problem.

To head off the standard rebuke to my critique, yes, it's possible that human ingenuity will generate substantial innovations in materials and energy science and engineering to make EVs net-beneficial on a mass scale before civilization collapses too far for it to matter.

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PostMar 02, 2023#172

symphonicpoet wrote:
Mar 01, 2023
At the end of the day language is a living thing and the way we use it dictates meaning as much as meaning dictates the way we use it. 'Sall good.
It's more the "agree to disagree" attitude when one is presented with facts that's discouraging.

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PostMar 02, 2023#173

^ To me it’s more mindless pedantry than anything else. Granted…stupid sh*t like that is an UrbanSTL staple…

…so carry on, I guess.

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PostMar 02, 2023#174

JFC, are you guys still going on about this? Seriously? I'm kidding around trying to have a light-hearted moment about a totally meaningless pet peeve, and people are genuinely worked up over it? 

Insert world's biggest eyeroll here. 

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PostMar 02, 2023#175

Bart Harley Jarvis wrote:
Mar 02, 2023
symphonicpoet wrote:
Mar 01, 2023
At the end of the day language is a living thing and the way we use it dictates meaning as much as meaning dictates the way we use it. 'Sall good.
It's more the "agree to disagree" attitude when one is presented with facts that's discouraging.
I'm on your side ya douche! *eyeroll* Now if you want me to get into the spelling of theatre, the difference between a podium and a lectern, or whether or not it's all rock and roll to me I care, but people use engine and motor as synonyms, therefore they are synonyms.

But theatre is spelled theatre and anyone that disagrees can kiss my Leko. ;-)

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