urbanSTL

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

debaliviere wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

Oct 19, 2022

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... 0#cxrecs_s

Looks like KC Law firm Polsinelli taking 90 employees from DT to Clayton. 

Feels like when it comes to downtown, it's always one small step forward, one huge step back.

So Scale moving 235 jobs to downtown was a small step forward and a law firm moving 90 out is a huge step back?   FDA moving 1000 in small step forward but KMOV moving 156 out is huge step back?

The USDA lease was huge for downtown.  As was Peabody's renewal.  As was Larson's recent investment.  But the losses are troubling.

There are going to be significant loses here and Clayton and everywhere, downtown Denver has a 26% vacancy rate for office.     The Centene tower that Centene “occupies” in Clayton is a ghost town.   I know someone that’s starting there next month and she said the before the old ceo died he pushed for 5 days a week in office, new ceo doesn’t want anyone in the office if they don’t have to be.    Central biz districts are changing and ours is for once positioned to do well in the new way they’re going to work- a little bit of office, a lot of residents and entertainment.   We have 4 major sports venues with teams in downtown, a national park, union station, city museum and conventions.   Focus for next 12-18 months should be retail and restaurants

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

^I appreciate you putting this into perspective.  Always better to look at the net gains.

If you read the article the owner of the building is implementing a short term capital improvement plan to "address near term lease rollover".  So this move might actually be about a gripe with the condition of the actual premises and not a DT issue...

If I were the building owner, I'd consider trying to navigate existing tenants and working on deals to move them around so I could turn some floors into housing. The views of the Arch and River are hard to beat from that building, but it depends on how occupied the building is. 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

There are going to be significant loses here and Clayton and everywhere, downtown Denver has a 26% vacancy rate for office.     The Centene tower that Centene “occupies” in Clayton is a ghost town.   I know someone that’s starting there next month and she said the before the old ceo died he pushed for 5 days a week in office, new ceo doesn’t want anyone in the office if they don’t have to be.    Central biz districts are changing and ours is for once positioned to do well in the new way they’re going to work- a little bit of office, a lot of residents and entertainment.   We have 4 major sports venues with teams in downtown, a national park, union station, city museum and conventions.   Focus for next 12-18 months should be retail and restaurants

It's hard to support retail without a sufficient daytime population.  Sure, all cities have in some way been affected by the WFH trend, but I would wager that their downtowns were all better positioned to handle it before the pandemic hit.  Our downtown was pretty dead heading into 2020, and it's worse now.  It's one thing to lose a firm like ShipWorks to the remote trend, but it's another thing to have firms packing up and moving out of downtown to other office submarkets in the region, particularly Clayton, and that seems to be the larger trend.

These like for like vacancy rate comparisons to other cities are just sticking one's head in the sand. Downtown Denver is significantly larger than St. Louis. Law firms is one of the few areas DT is still stronger over Clayton, but if this is a sign of things to come its not good. We've already saw the likes of Brown and Crouppen moving to the hill recently.

The region needs one strong central core, instead we have two watered down ones. I'd quite happily throw a stick of dynamite to one and focus on the other but the reality is we are going to have this fragmented sh*t instead here on out.

Suburban Sprawl wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

These like for like vacancy rate comparisons to other cities are just sticking one's head in the sand. Downtown Denver is significantly larger than St. Louis. Law firms is one of the few areas DT is still stronger over Clayton, but if this is a sign of things to come its not good. We've already saw the likes of Brown and Crouppen moving to the hill recently.

The region needs one strong central core, instead we have two watered down ones. I'd quite happily throw a stick of dynamite to one and focus on the other but the reality is we are going to have this fragmented sh*t instead here on out.

Our vacancy is lower than bunch of peer cities too with same sized downtowns


West County took a huge Q3 hit in office vacancy, about 1.6m SF empty now for a total rate of 18%
West County experienced the addition of over 645,000 square feet (sf) of sublet space hitting the market during the third quarter. This space was the primary driver for the roughly 602,000-sf of negative absorption the submarket endured in Q3 2022. Vacancy jumped to 17.7%, up 340-bps from Q2 2022 and leasing activity this
quarter was only 37.5% of what it was in Q2 2022”


Biggest additions in downtown in Q3;

BJC signed a 34,000 SF lease at 1430 Olive
Schlichter Bogard & Denton, LLP Singed a 24,000 SF lease at 100 N Broadway

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 21, 2022

Suburban Sprawl wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

These like for like vacancy rate comparisons to other cities are just sticking one's head in the sand. Downtown Denver is significantly larger than St. Louis. Law firms is one of the few areas DT is still stronger over Clayton, but if this is a sign of things to come its not good. We've already saw the likes of Brown and Crouppen moving to the hill recently.

The region needs one strong central core, instead we have two watered down ones. I'd quite happily throw a stick of dynamite to one and focus on the other but the reality is we are going to have this fragmented sh*t instead here on out.

Our vacancy is lower than bunch of peer cities too with same sized downtowns


West County took a huge Q3 hit in office vacancy, about 1.6m SF empty now for a total rate of 18%
West County experienced the addition of over 645,000 square feet (sf) of sublet space hitting the market during the third quarter. This space was the primary driver for the roughly 602,000-sf of negative absorption the submarket endured in Q3 2022. Vacancy jumped to 17.7%, up 340-bps from Q2 2022 and leasing activity this
quarter was only 37.5% of what it was in Q2 2022”


Biggest additions in downtown in Q3;

BJC signed a 34,000 SF lease at 1430 Olive
Schlichter Bogard & Denton, LLP Singed a 24,000 SF lease at 100 N Broadway

Does the downtown vacancy rate include the ATT Tower & Railway Exchange as unoccupied?  I dont believe it does.

If it doesn't the downtown has a much larger vacancy problem than anywhere else.  Adding just those two buildings would significantly increase Downtown's vacancy rate.  Chesterfield & Clayton dont have those large vacant buildings like Downtown does.  Which is why its imperative to fix those two buildings and keep up the momentum from the Butler Building. 

If Polsinelli is looking at the Centene tower this makes me think the move has less to with Downtown crime, etc. and more to do with the flight to quality office space trend that is playing out nationally. With this being a buyers market for office space, firms that want to have a physical office are seeking the highest quality space available. While Downtown has a lot of vacant office space, i don’t know how much of it is truly top caliber. I bet most of the vacancies are in lower quality spaces, whereas Clayton has top tier Centene space available.

That said, I wish more companies would wake up and realize the grass isn’t greener in Clayton. I’ve worked there for years and can confirm that Clayton really sucks! It’s a boring, lifeless overgrown office park.

I just don't see an end to things sadly. Even with a merger. If all the County employees moved Downtown would that stop the flight west? I think we are past that stage.

Downtown is the entertainment, cultural and historical heart of the city, where as Clayton is the epicenter of the region as a whole and the main economic hub of the much more populated County and doesn't have the crime stigma of Downtown.

It's so cut throat and to the detriment of the entire region.

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑

Oct 21, 2022

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 21, 2022

Suburban Sprawl wrote: ↑

Oct 20, 2022

These like for like vacancy rate comparisons to other cities are just sticking one's head in the sand. Downtown Denver is significantly larger than St. Louis. Law firms is one of the few areas DT is still stronger over Clayton, but if this is a sign of things to come its not good. We've already saw the likes of Brown and Crouppen moving to the hill recently.

The region needs one strong central core, instead we have two watered down ones. I'd quite happily throw a stick of dynamite to one and focus on the other but the reality is we are going to have this fragmented sh*t instead here on out.

Our vacancy is lower than bunch of peer cities too with same sized downtowns


West County took a huge Q3 hit in office vacancy, about 1.6m SF empty now for a total rate of 18%
West County experienced the addition of over 645,000 square feet (sf) of sublet space hitting the market during the third quarter. This space was the primary driver for the roughly 602,000-sf of negative absorption the submarket endured in Q3 2022. Vacancy jumped to 17.7%, up 340-bps from Q2 2022 and leasing activity this
quarter was only 37.5% of what it was in Q2 2022”


Biggest additions in downtown in Q3;

BJC signed a 34,000 SF lease at 1430 Olive
Schlichter Bogard & Denton, LLP Singed a 24,000 SF lease at 100 N Broadway

Does the downtown vacancy rate include the ATT Tower & Railway Exchange as unoccupied?  I dont believe it does.

If it doesn't the downtown has a much larger vacancy problem than anywhere else.  Adding just those two buildings would significantly increase Downtown's vacancy rate.  Chesterfield & Clayton dont have those large vacant buildings like Downtown does.  Which is why its imperative to fix those two buildings and keep up the momentum from the Butler Building. 

Why include buildings that aren’t going to be office going forward? Wakeman Cushfield applies the same baseline for all their city reports across the country

Fair point, and I think from an office vacancy point thats a correct way to measure.  

From a POV thats looking at how do we make downtown more vibrant - I think acknowledging that our office occupancy numbers dont include those buildings and that office occupancy rate doesn't explain everything is worth pointing out. 

Downtown will always be a major employment hub, but it's been said numerous times that the future of downtown is much more mixed use.

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑

Oct 21, 2022

That said, I wish more companies would wake up and realize the grass isn’t greener in Clayton. I’ve worked there for years and can confirm that Clayton really sucks! It’s a boring, lifeless overgrown office park.

I think for some this is a stage of life/preference of life take. If I was in my 20, or even early 30s and wanted some night life, I’d probably agree. I lived on Wash ave for a few years in my 20s and did love it at the time. But now that I’m in my late 30s and have a kid I love being able to walk to downtown Clayton from where I live in Ucity. If is fairly central to everything, knowing I rarely go outside 270, with good restaurant choices, parks, etc. I am happy to see it evolve a bit. There definitely isn’t the nightlife I would have wanted when I was younger, but now it’s good for me.

I am more than happy to be working in the city, but the idea of working in Clayton and biking/walking to work is appealing. But I also realize not everyone lives close enough to Clayton to bike/walk to it.

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Oct 22, 2022

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑

Oct 21, 2022

That said, I wish more companies would wake up and realize the grass isn’t greener in Clayton.  I’ve worked there for years and can confirm that Clayton really sucks!  It’s a boring, lifeless overgrown office park.

I think for some this is a stage of life/preference of life take. If I was in my 20, or even early 30s and wanted some night life, I’d probably agree. I lived on Wash ave for a few years in my 20s and did love it at the time. But now that I’m in my late 30s and have a kid I love being able to walk to downtown Clayton from where I live in Ucity. If is fairly central to everything, knowing I rarely go outside 270, with good restaurant choices, parks, etc. I am happy to see it evolve a bit. There definitely isn’t the nightlife I would have wanted when I was younger, but now it’s good for me.  

I am more than happy to be working in the city, but the idea of working in Clayton and biking/walking to work is appealing. But I also realize not everyone lives close enough to Clayton to bike/walk to it.

I understand your view, but if everyone hadn't fled from the city and specifically downtown to the county over the past decades we'd have a world where you could do just that in the city. You could safely and easily walk from midtown, Soulard, and other neighborhoods to downtown and enjoy all the amenities there. Downtown would be more central to everything than it currently is as a result because North City and East St. Louis would likely be doing better due to the attractiveness of downtown. Clayton would probably be doing better too, honestly, because when the urban core thrives, so do its suburbs. No matter how us that live here think of the region, everyone else will always associate St. Louis primarily with our downtown – if people's perception of it is poor, that's the starting point for most people on how they view the whole region and it will affect the rest of the region accordingly.

Has Mills properties sold city view to Blue Magma Properties? New signs out front

On Nov 30 Board of Adjustment agenda

APPEAL #11637 – Appeal filed by Elkin Kistner, from the determination of the Board of Public Service to not revoke the conditional use permit at 721 N Tucker Blvd.

mikenewell48 wrote: ↑

Oct 27, 2022

Has Mills properties sold city view to Blue Magma Properties? New signs out front

The new sign calls it Gateway at CityPark. They had a "Gateway Towers" sign up for like a day, then took it down. A week or so later, the new one showed up. The Gateway Towers website redirects to the Gateway at CityPark site.
Odd. Maybe they found out that Gateway Towers was trademarked or something? Anyway, hopefully Blue Magma is better than Mills and can slow down the regular shootings outside of their buildings.

eee123 wrote: ↑

Nov 09, 2022

mikenewell48 wrote: ↑

Oct 27, 2022

Has Mills properties sold city view to Blue Magma Properties? New signs out front

The new sign calls it Gateway at CityPark. They had a "Gateway Towers" sign up for like a day, then took it down. A week or so later, the new one showed up. The Gateway Towers website redirects to the Gateway at CityPark site.
Odd. Maybe they found out that Gateway Towers was trademarked or something? Anyway, hopefully Blue Magma is better than Mills and can slow down the regular shootings outside of their buildings.

I suspect they added City Park when the stadium name came out, trying to jump on the bandwagon of soccer stadium-adjacent developments.

Would love to see a ground floor reconfiguring on a 2-3 of the buildings in this complex. Ideally some small scale retail bays on some of the corners with a better street frontage.

Even if they aren't filled right away it would be great for prospective tenants to have it as an option. Right now that area is a pedestrian black hole. The only real activation is Anchor Room Coffee which is all well and good but opens directly into a parking lot.

I can't imagine the opportunity cost would be very high, it would be replacing ground floor units which are among the least desirable for buildings like that.

A couple new spots open up there and they could increase rent by tens of percentage points.

Was in downtown Indy recently for the first time since the pandemic.... the city definitely is more downtown-centric compared to our more poly-centric nature. and consequently they have more downtown shopping, dining etc., but it also was pretty clear their downtown has some of the same challenges as our own, and frankly the vast majority, of downtowns.  Quite a few storefront vacancies, a lot of people struggling, etc.

Anyway, it's interesting to think about what our city would be like if it also was more typical, like Indy, by having a more downtown-centric nature; or if at least things here were more squished together.... i.e. what if spatially the CWE began at Grand and there was no Grand Center, but the orchestra and Broadway shows, etc. played in downtown theaters. Soulard Market was downtown. Even the Zoo and Botanical Garden were walkable from downtown. Not necessarily better or worse overall, but definitely different.

STLrainbow wrote: ↑

Nov 13, 2022

Was in downtown Indy recently for the first time since the pandemic.... the city definitely is more downtown-centric compared to our more poly-centric nature. and consequently they have more downtown shopping, dining etc., but it also was pretty clear their downtown has some of the same challenges as our own, and frankly the vast majority, of downtowns.  Quite a few storefront vacancies, a lot of people struggling, etc.

Anyway, it's interesting to think about what our city would be like if it also was more typical, like Indy, by having a more downtown-centric nature; or if at least things here were more squished together.... i.e. what if spatially the CWE began at Grand and there was no Grand Center, but the orchestra and Broadway shows, etc. played in downtown theaters. Soulard Market was downtown. Even the Zoo and Botanical Garden were walkable from downtown. Not necessarily better or worse overall, but definitely different.

St. Louis has the spatial layout of a much larger city, I'm thinking Atlanta in particular, but without the massive growth needed to fill in the gaps. 

TBH we have the spatial layout of Chicago, in terms of the urban area developed prewar at least

STLrainbow wrote: ↑

Nov 13, 2022

Was in downtown Indy recently for the first time since the pandemic.... the city definitely is more downtown-centric compared to our more poly-centric nature. and consequently they have more downtown shopping, dining etc., but it also was pretty clear their downtown has some of the same challenges as our own, and frankly the vast majority, of downtowns.  Quite a few storefront vacancies, a lot of people struggling, etc.

Anyway, it's interesting to think about what our city would be like if it also was more typical, like Indy, by having a more downtown-centric nature; or if at least things here were more squished together.... i.e. what if spatially the CWE began at Grand and there was no Grand Center, but the orchestra and Broadway shows, etc. played in downtown theaters. Soulard Market was downtown. Even the Zoo and Botanical Garden were walkable from downtown. Not necessarily better or worse overall, but definitely different.

Yeah that's what I was thinking about when I was in Cincinnati a few weeks ago.  Over the Rhine is basically in the same spot spatially where Downtown West is in St. Louis-it starts a dozen blocks roughly from their riverfront and is easily walkable from downtown Cincy. 

I think St. Louis would benefit greatly from townhome or even urban single family infill to connect the different urban districts. Maybe the land is too expensive and therefore requires larger apartment buildings? I don't know, but there is definitely way too much vacant land in and around downtown. Even compared to sunbelt cities. 

goat314 wrote: ↑

Nov 14, 2022

I think St. Louis would benefit greatly from townhome or even urban single family infill to connect the different urban districts. Maybe the land is too expensive and therefore requires larger apartment buildings? I don't know, but there is definitely way too much vacant land in and around downtown. Even compared to sunbelt cities. 

Agree 100%. I was driving around DT West and Grand Center last night and I kept thinking we need a Greater St. Louis Inc type of organization to sponsor a massive scattered sites townhouse project to fill up all the vacant land in that area. There’s so much of it!