Old Shannon's Space 620 Market

RockChalkSTL · PostMar 08, 2022#512022-03-08T15:09+00:00

A walk down Market would be a long walk with very little retail.

You have two of the grossest parking garages in the city fronting the Mall. And there's another garage just down the street. You have hideous Soviet-type architecture fronting the Mall.

I've made this argument on this forum before, that St. Louis' Gateway Mall and buildings facing the National Park are weak and not worthy of the anointed green spaces that they front, but I'm kind of changing my tune on it by building up a callous of apathy.

St. Louis is never going to be able to build up the Mall or surround the National Park with buildings like I'd want, so I think a seven-story building will be fine for this lot and I hope it happens - just with retail on both sides of the building, please. Retail needs to face both Market and the BPV district.

stlnative · PostMar 08, 2022#522022-03-08T15:22+00:00

Wow what a bold architectural statement!

I'm all for developing this site into a denser residential/commercial development, but this style of construction and design belongs somewhere else. Like mentioned earlier, this site deserves better. It's such a prominent location in the heart of downtown. You'd think with Ballpark Village and the adaptive reuse of 300 S Broadway this would generate something of similar quality and height.

pattimagee · PostMar 08, 2022#532022-03-08T15:31+00:00

I would be fine if it ended up looking like their other project above.

I guess I'm not set on this idea that every "prime" location needs a tower (at some point when our empty lots are filled, I could be convinced otherwise though). I'm completely fine with this size of building, though I agree that with the foot traffic that baseball season brings it should have some more desirable interaction at street level. Here's hoping this is just a 1st iteration.

RockChalkSTL · PostMar 08, 2022#542022-03-08T15:40+00:00

^Totally agreed.

People on the forum want to landbank and wait another five (... or ten?...) years for something larger. I'd rather have another new-build seven-story building in downtown.

We have loads of lots for whenever someone wants to build downtown St. Louis' next 350'+ tower.

PeterXCV · PostMar 08, 2022#552022-03-08T16:43+00:00

Yeah I don't mind the height, when Downtown was vibrant decades ago it was filled with low and mid-rise buildings, I just hope this isn't as fugly as the rendering indicates. Retail/restaurant on ground floor, no blank walls, balconies, minimal curb cuts are what would really contribute to Downtown.

PlatinumBlues · PostMar 08, 2022#562022-03-08T17:09+00:00

Can the city veto this?? It would look so out of place in its surroundings. Something 10 floors or a little taller would fit in this looks too suburban in style just my opinion. I’ll go on to say this parcel should be for something iconic or close to it.

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Laife Fulk · PostMar 08, 2022#572022-03-08T17:17+00:00

I like it, but I'd push for better building materials over more height. Make it a requirement that no cement fiber board can be used, and any brick needs to be... well, actual brick and not a veneer. Downtown would benefit from another dozen or two versions of this project in place of surface parking.

Iconic high rises are fun, but shorter buildings like this are what St. Louis needs to start changing downtown's urban fabric.

RockChalkSTL · PostMar 08, 2022#582022-03-08T17:17+00:00

^^It will look dramatically less out of place than what exists there right now, and which has existed there for decades.

EssTeeEll · PostMar 08, 2022#592022-03-08T17:22+00:00

I'm less concerned about the height (the site is gaining 5 stories) and more concerned about the design. Obviously hard to tell from a basic initial rendering, but I don't have much hope this will turn out too differently than these kind of buildings usually do. However, since there's no telling how much longer this would be dead space, and assuming this is a proposal that has a good chance of coming to fruition, then bring on the additional density.

RockChalkSTL · PostMar 08, 2022#602022-03-08T17:24+00:00

Laife Fulk wrote: ↑
Mar 08, 2022
I like it, but I'd push for better building materials over more height. Make it a requirement that no cement fiber board can be used, and any brick needs to be... well, actual brick and not a veneer. Downtown would benefit from another dozen or two versions of this project in place of surface parking.

Iconic high rises are fun, but shorter buildings like this are what St. Louis needs to start changing downtown's urban fabric.

Yeah, I've come around on this line of thinking.

One thirty-five story building is cool - but what downtown St. Louis needs more is five seven-story buildings.

metzgda · PostMar 08, 2022#612022-03-08T17:39+00:00

Laife Fulk wrote: ↑
Mar 08, 2022
I like it, but I'd push for better building materials over more height. Make it a requirement that no cement fiber board can be used, and any brick needs to be... well, actual brick and not a veneer. Downtown would benefit from another dozen or two versions of this project in place of surface parking.

Iconic high rises are fun, but shorter buildings like this are what St. Louis needs to start changing downtown's urban fabric.

Well said. This type of infill is common in some of the highest growth urban areas in the country that are also having high-rise booms. I see this and think Indy, Dallas, Nashville, Seattle. I would agree that the building materials can be improved as well as activating the street better, but scale seems appropriate.
Here is an example from Austin's downtown that is somewhat comparable.

Laife Fulk · PostMar 08, 2022#622022-03-08T17:57+00:00

Precisely^. Heck, if someone could make the financials work to build 3 story townhomes across downtown and downtown west, that would do wonders. (I think this is @SeattleNative 's long term dream / idea?). Unfortunately, all the empty parking lots just aren't going to be sold cheaply enough that smaller infill development makes financial sense.

chris fuller · PostMar 08, 2022#632022-03-08T17:59+00:00

was it part of the exposition? https://youtu.be/g-x7nFxHkCg?t=1590

SeattleNative · PostMar 08, 2022#642022-03-08T18:02+00:00

Laife Fulk wrote:Precisely^. Heck, if someone could make the financials work to build 3 story townhomes across downtown and downtown west, that would do wonders. (I think this is @SeattleNative 's long term dream / idea?). Unfortunately, all the empty parking lots just aren't going to be sold cheaply enough that smaller infill development makes financial sense.

Yeah I tend to think it’s much more feasible than 10 story towers everywhere (and if the market demands 10 story towers, townhomes wouldn’t be too expensive to redevelop). But it’s also the downtown plan’s vision as well. I can understand why downtown parking lot owners aren’t quick to jump at that though given low holding costs.

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GoHarvOrGoHome · PostMar 08, 2022#652022-03-08T18:26+00:00

The design is meh but tolerable compared to the brutalist, autocentric, black hole that is the Mike Shannon's building. I also like the balconies. Talk about a great place to live when the Blues or Cardinals win a championship

Also I hope they include more retail in later iterations. The city is investing big bucks into turning 7th street into a main N/S connector within downtown. This is a chance to help that process along with a granular and retail rich streetwall.

gone corporate · PostMar 08, 2022#662022-03-08T18:37+00:00

This could really succeed IF the design of the project mirrors and complements the brick-centric construction of the Cupples Buildings, Busch Stadium, and Bamboo's work turning the old HQ of STL Community College into apartments. Doing so could make the southern section of Downtown be more of a "place" rather than just a location. While I'm personally much more inclined to see site footprints fronting the Gateway Mall have significant height and design considerations, a Cupples-esque building could do wonders here. Otherwise, these first designs look much more like this would be better off someplace else, like 4915 Pine next to the Del Coronado Apartments, or as a first phase of redoing Choteau's Landing. I'm glad to see new interests in the heart of Downtown, but I'd rather not see this initial design just behind the Arch. So, yeah, I'm hoping they come up with something more appropriate with presumed second design iterations.

Suds · PostMar 08, 2022#672022-03-08T19:11+00:00

gone corporate wrote:This could really succeed IF the design of the project mirrors and complements the brick-centric construction of the Cupples Buildings, Busch Stadium, and Bamboo's work turning the old HQ of STL Community College into apartments. Doing so could make the southern section of Downtown be more of a "place" rather than just a location. While I'm personally much more inclined to see site footprints fronting the Gateway Mall have significant height and design considerations, a Cupples-esque building could do wonders here. Otherwise, these first designs look much more like this would be better off someplace else, like 4915 Pine next to the Del Coronado Apartments, or as a first phase of redoing Choteau's Landing. I'm glad to see new interests in the heart of Downtown, but I'd rather not see this initial design just behind the Arch. So, yeah, I'm hoping they come up with something more appropriate with presumed second design iterations.

Good point, this would look great in Chouteau's Landing. Might also look good on the empty lots behind Wash Ave.

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PostMar 08, 2022#682022-03-08T19:14+00:00

metzgda wrote:
Laife Fulk wrote: ↑
Mar 08, 2022
I like it, but I'd push for better building materials over more height. Make it a requirement that no cement fiber board can be used, and any brick needs to be... well, actual brick and not a veneer. Downtown would benefit from another dozen or two versions of this project in place of surface parking.

Iconic high rises are fun, but shorter buildings like this are what St. Louis needs to start changing downtown's urban fabric.
Well said. This type of infill is common in some of the highest growth urban areas in the country that are also having high-rise booms. I see this and think Indy, Dallas, Nashville, Seattle. I would agree that the building materials can be improved as well as activating the street better, but scale seems appropriate.
Here is an example from Austin's downtown that is somewhat comparable.

I don't think anybody disagrees that downtown needs more buildings like this. Like you said, Nashville and others have used them nicely. Even Birmingham has recently used them to better connect their downtown with adjacent neighborhoods. Height also isn't that important; I'm fine with 3-7 stories. It just would look terrible in this specific spot on Market.

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_nomad_ · PostMar 08, 2022#692022-03-08T19:19+00:00

I think it's decent enough infill, the height is fine considering there are a decent number of taller structures in the vicinity. While it's an economical construction, I think that also makes it easier to tear down and replace (both in terms of cost and practical ease) if the market ever calls for a 20 story building on this site in the future. It's a good project for where downtown is right now and what its current needs are and will contribute to growing the area.

dredger · PostMar 08, 2022#702022-03-08T19:43+00:00

Yep, agree with all the comments on height for this project. This project along with OPUS proposed downtown Spruce street will compliment a new 2CW tower to go along with One Cardinal. Hopefully all three break ground for downtown sake. A lot of mid rise fill in for downtown and some townhouse/rowhouse type development on adjacent neighborhoods will go a longs ways

dweebe · PostMar 08, 2022#712022-03-08T19:57+00:00

_nomad_ wrote: ↑
Mar 08, 2022
I think it's decent enough infill, the height is fine considering there are a decent number of taller structures in the vicinity. While it's an economical construction, I think that also makes it easier to tear down and replace (both in terms of cost and practical ease) if the market ever calls for a 20 story building on this site in the future. It's a good project for where downtown is right now and what its current needs are and will contribute to growing the area.

I'm starting to calm down a bit an agree that for us to huff and puff and pout because it's not a 10,15,20+ story tower is useless.

But the first floor has to be done right.

_nomad_ · PostMar 08, 2022#722022-03-08T20:18+00:00

dweebe wrote: ↑
Mar 08, 2022
_nomad_ wrote: ↑
Mar 08, 2022
I think it's decent enough infill, the height is fine considering there are a decent number of taller structures in the vicinity. While it's an economical construction, I think that also makes it easier to tear down and replace (both in terms of cost and practical ease) if the market ever calls for a 20 story building on this site in the future. It's a good project for where downtown is right now and what its current needs are and will contribute to growing the area.
I'm starting to calm down a bit an agree that for us to huff and puff and pout because it's not a 10,15,20+ story tower is useless.

But the first floor has to be done right.

Agreed, I like that the commercial space faces Market, I wish there was more action on the other facades. I think the fact that BPV is right there maybe justifies not having more retail (ie. any demand for retail space in the immediate vicinity will be met within the BPV site especially if Phase III happens), but retail isn't the only thing that can activate a first floor, there's definitely room for improvement on that aspect.

pdm_ad · PostMar 08, 2022#732022-03-08T20:29+00:00

Compared to what is there, this is a nice upgrade. Like Dredger says, hope we see this, 2CW and 300 S Broadway all come to fruition in the next couple of years. Guessing the three would be 600-700 units?

sc4mayor · PostMar 08, 2022#742022-03-08T20:52+00:00

Isn’t Bamboo already working on the rehab of 300 S Broadway?

I’d like to know more about 1014 Spruce as Chris pointed out in his link that Opus dropped it but it was picked up by someone else.

dbInSouthCity · PostMar 08, 2022#752022-03-08T20:58+00:00

Yes, 300 S Broadway is well under construction and i assume it will be done this fall. 80 apartments and 3500 SQ of retail

Old Shannon's Space 620 Market

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