urbanSTL

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

Takeaways so far, single terminal with 62 gates, 110' wide, new security building after domes, departures elevated and 4 lanes, arrivals at grade with baggage and 7 lanes, new approaches from I-70 and new consolidated garage. I like it!

How many gates are in T1 currently?

Wiki says 68. 18 in T2.

For comparison, new KCI will be 39 gates.

So 28% (24 gates) decrease and WN loses its own Terminal.

9 gates come from empty Concourse B. But still seems hard to believe WN is happy with this, I wonder what sort of concessions Rhonda is making for them.  

^ She explained that it helps everyone when TSA and immigration is consolidated and that's why, in preliminary discussions, they are onboard. Nothing set in stone and no agreements in place at this point.

gone corporate wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

Has the presentation been put online yet? Anyone have a link to it? Thanks

If it has I can't find it, but here's a couple of my screen grabs adding to what CityScene already shared. (Mostly the same, but larger versions.)

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

Takeaways so far, single terminal with 62 gates, 110' wide, new security building after domes, departures elevated and 4 lanes, arrivals at grade with baggage and 7 lanes, new approaches from I-70 and new consolidated garage. I like it!

How many gates are in T1 currently?

Wiki says 68. 18 in T2.

For comparison, new KCI will be 39 gates.

Am I missing something? Slide 29 seems to say the existing gate total is 54. 

Also a small observation . . .


They're using ma pictures! *does little dance*

New construction gates are designed for larger airplanes with higher load factors. You cannot compare gates to gates alone. Slide says 18 gates today vs a need for 22 domestic + 3 FIS in terminal 2 in 2040. Not as much growth as I had hoped for by Southwest. During the Q&A they mentioned Southwest operational difficulties with having such a long walk between their gates. They need the double-sided concourses a new terminal would offer to continue growing here. So Southwest supports the new project and seems likes its required if they are going to grow here. I believe they also mentioned that the T2 baggage expansion will still be needed. 

The new terminal plan is going to move next into further financial analysis. If prices are good, Southwest and the airlines will continue to back it but expect changes. My worry is that working around existing, active terminals will be VERY costly and time-consuming. KC, IND, and New Orleans each spent $1-1.5 billion to build 35-40 gates + supporting infrastructure away from their existing terminals. STL wants to build 50% more gates + all of that supporting infrastructure like those cities but on top of existing facilities that must stay open during construction. I would imagine it will realistically be $2-2.5 billion for everything they are saying.

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

New construction gates are designed for larger airplanes with higher load factors. You cannot compare gates to gates alone. Slide says 18 gates today to 22 domestic + 3 FIS in terminal 2 in 2040. Not as much growth as I had hoped for by Southwest. During the Q&A they mentioned Southwest operational difficulties with having such a long walk between their gates. They need the double-sided concourses a new terminal would offer to continue growing here. So Southwest supports the new project and seems likes its required if they are going to grow here.

I'm quite ignorant about T2, is there anyway to add a moving walkway in there?

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

New construction gates are designed for larger airplanes with higher load factors. You cannot compare gates to gates alone. Slide says 18 gates today to 22 domestic + 3 FIS in terminal 2 in 2040. Not as much growth as I had hoped for by Southwest. During the Q&A they mentioned Southwest operational difficulties with having such a long walk between their gates. They need the double-sided concourses a new terminal would offer to continue growing here. So Southwest supports the new project and seems likes its required if they are going to grow here.

I'm quite ignorant about T2, is there anyway to add a moving walkway in there?

I don't think the concourses are wide enough. Circulation space already gets cramped as is. The call just mentioned issues with the customer experience and missed connections but having such a long singe sided concourses also creates issues with moving bags, equipment, and staff.

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

ldai_phs wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

New construction gates are designed for larger airplanes with higher load factors. You cannot compare gates to gates alone. Slide says 18 gates today to 22 domestic + 3 FIS in terminal 2 in 2040. Not as much growth as I had hoped for by Southwest. During the Q&A they mentioned Southwest operational difficulties with having such a long walk between their gates. They need the double-sided concourses a new terminal would offer to continue growing here. So Southwest supports the new project and seems likes its required if they are going to grow here.

I'm quite ignorant about T2, is there anyway to add a moving walkway in there?

There are already moving walkways at the end in the portion that used to be D. Adding more would, as Idai_phs says, probably be difficult. But oddly, people don't necessarily move faster on moving walkways, as people figure they're moving anyway so they slow down or stop and actually end up moving slower overall. (Though obviously if you're in a hurry they're a big help.)

It felt like there was a consistent hint in messaging throughout the presentation (especially from Rhonda) that this isn’t a plan they intend on sitting with or waiting to implement.
We’ll know more Q2, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear it’s full throttle 2024 - 2026.
With infrastructure, settlement, airlines… we could avoid obscene amounts of debt or massive increases in landing fees?

Some of the changes will happen in short order I’m sure (airfield, etc) but I got the feeling that terminal work might be more in-line with JShanks 2030+ prediction.

Any indication (or any of this forum's ideas) as to what would become of the current terminal 2 and its infrastructure once everything moves to the new terminal 1 concourse?
Does it get mothballed or demo'd? Remain in use for charters/special flights? Kept in reserve to bring back online if/when flights ever exceed the new concourse's capacity?

_nomad_ wrote:Any indication (or any of this forum's ideas) as to what would become of the current terminal 2 and its infrastructure once everything moves to the new terminal 1 concourse?
Does it get mothballed or demo'd? Remain in use for charters/special flights? Kept in reserve to bring back online if/when flights ever exceed the new concourse's capacity?

Terminal 2 and infrastructure will get demolished after the move to Terminal 1 per the meeting. The new concourse can be expanded to the east and west as needed. T2 will be hitting its end of life around the design date (2040) anyways.

I guess we know now why Southwest didn’t build out more baggage claims.

The east terminal isn’t that old. What is the reasoning for replacement?

Also, isn’t much of c less than 10 years old thanks to the tornado?

moorlander wrote:I guess we know now why Southwest didn’t build out more baggage claims.

The east terminal isn’t that old. What is the reasoning for replacement?

Also, isn’t much of c less than 10 years old thanks to the tornado?

See my responses earlier in the night.

Terminal 2 is not operationally efficient for connecting operations but sounds like the baggage expansion will still happen. Possible to reuse the site but for now they will bulldoze

_nomad_ wrote: ↑

Jan 06, 2022

Any indication (or any of this forum's ideas) as to what would become of the current terminal 2 and its infrastructure once everything moves to the new terminal 1 concourse?
Does it get mothballed or demo'd? Remain in use for charters/special flights? Kept in reserve to bring back online if/when flights ever exceed the new concourse's capacity?

Options are to demolish or repurpose. Sounded like both may be on the table at this point.

Wow, finally a plan with long term vision.  I think it is the right plan for the future.   Yes Southwest might give up their own terminal but gain a lot of efficiencies and a fair number of airports they already operate that way anyways, Denver comes to mind

Just hope they can accelerate even though it will not be an easy construction process and not as cost effective like New Orleans or KC.  However, it has been done before such as being done w Terminal 1 & 2 at SFO or Midway and Houston Hobby as some examples.   

The plus side on construction of single linear concourse is that B is pretty much dead and so you can demo and build out your new screening & initial gates without a huge interference, consolidate some gate over on A or C side, add a temp walkway & then proceed to build out the linear concourse in the other direction.  In that process I can see the last gates to be built out would be for Southwest.  But who knows, I move dirt under water for a living so I can see construction managers a lot smarter then me have it figured out already.

^If I had to guess . . . I expect they'll move folks out of A first and temporarily move them into C/D so that they can demolish A and B and build the west half. Once that's done I'd expect they'll move everyone they can into the west half of the new concourse and proceed east until they can finally move Southwest into it and shut T2 down. I bet it will be a madhouse almost comparable to the TWA days for a little while in C/D/E.