urbanSTL

shadrach wrote: ↑

Jan 04, 2022

This is all very curious. Our non-profit had a zoom with Sam Page (prior to the NFL settlement) and he mentioned potential land/opportunity zones near the airport and that would be a great location especially as Lambert is going to be totally different in the next couple years. I didn’t press that as it would derail the conversation but wondered what was in the works and if funding has already been identified. Also, that comment seems like it’s fast-tracked. Maybe not. But hope so.

Interesting that these are listed as stakeholders involved in the plan. Makes me think this is a lot more of a "this is what WE WILL BUILD" and not just a regular update to appease the regulatory requirement.


Economic Development Agencies:
       Bi-State Development
       East West Gateway Coordinating Council
       St. Louis Regional Business Council
       Greater St. Louis Inc. (merged with St. Louis Regional Growth Association & Civic Progress St. Louis)
       St. Louis Economic Development Partnership
       St. Louis Development Corporation

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

• Most people prefer an onsite rental facility that is just a walk from the terminal: Orlando or Tampa are examples.
• Next on the list is a remote unified rental car facility that is served by shared buses or trains that continually run. Those can vary in frustration as shown by the people mover debacle at O'Hare.
• Obviously the worst setup is where rental car companies are off campus in various places and you must wait for that company's bus. St. Louis and LAX are examples.

Tampa has a train to the car rental facility, not in the terminal - it's a couple years old now

Yep, and MIA is even worse.

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

Yep, and MIA is even worse.

Flew into MIA once and it was the worst airport experience I've ever had, the car rental facility took forever to get to, had to walk for 20 minutes AND take a train to get to the car rental hub.  The rental process itself was awful as well (as most airports are I'm sure, but this was unusually bad) took 2 hours to confirm my pre-paid reservation and get my car from Avis.

Directional signage was also horrible and confusing, really made me appreciate Lambert Airport more.

Bart Harley Jarvis wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

• Most people prefer an onsite rental facility that is just a walk from the terminal: Orlando or Tampa are examples.
• Next on the list is a remote unified rental car facility that is served by shared buses or trains that continually run. Those can vary in frustration as shown by the people mover debacle at O'Hare.
• Obviously the worst setup is where rental car companies are off campus in various places and you must wait for that company's bus. St. Louis and LAX are examples.

Tampa has a train to the car rental facility, not in the terminal - it's a couple years old now

I'd forgotten that as Tampa was about to break ground on it last time I was there.

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

jshank83 wrote:

dredger wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

^ I don't think you would have sufficient number of trips.  As a business traveler I would hate the idea of waiting 20 to 30 minutes for a ride to Consolidated Rental Center.

If you charge a couple bucks per rental tax to go towards metro, maybe you could work something out to have more trains. At least on that section. But I honestly have no clue how doable that actually is.

Metro has everything it needs to make this happen, including the trains. It does single track between T1 and T2 but that is a minor operational barrier.

Dedicating another train to bounce between Hanley <> T1/2 alongside normal Red Line service would be enough for every 4 to 5 mins.

Wrap the airport specific train in a fancy “airport tram” branding, have the airport dedicate security, and improve way-finding inside the airport as “Rental Car Tram”.

$0.25 to $0.50 a car would cover this.

Understand what your saying as any easy fix but Lambert needs to have a vision go forward whether it is single terminal or keep the two terminal deal going but as it stands now you literally got way too many gates.   Time for Concourses A to D  to go away with a linear concourse.,   You do that and it a minimum you can better utilize tarmac space & build out a new CRC/short term parking and single metrolink  airport station stop where D stands now and for which will also conveniently tie in with the two terminals   Lambert travelers get direct access to rental cars without shuttle bus or train, get rid of some shuttle buses to improve curbside, more on site short term parking and finally match gates to needs.   

I just come to conclusion that Lambert like city is land rich.   You literally have all the space you need at the airport itself, including adding a hotel tower and new air freight facilities,  if the airport is willing to do away with the TWA hub era concourses and modify the existing on and off ramps from I70..     To build off airport site facilities just doesn't make sense to me if you want to look ahead the 20, 30, 40 or more years.

On the topic of rental car facilities, I would prefer something where you can walk but that probably won't work since T1 and T2 are too far apart. I fly to TPA about a half dozen times per year and I far preferred their previous setup. The new people mover tram frequently 'breaks' and you are stuck waiting with hundreds of people for 15-30 minutes. It's happened twice to me over the last year so I'm not sure I would want MetroLink to fill this role at our airport.

If we have a unified rental car facility located off-airport (or too far to walk), I would want something similar to what SEA operates with their offsite facility. They have buses that run constantly and you never have to wait longer than a few minutes. We wouldn't have the hodge podge setup now with all the different car companies sending separate buses, all would be the same color and style, and we wouldn't have a single point of failure like you have in a rail system.

With respect to future terminal/gate plans, I would hope that they shift the new gates out to the west, about where A currently connects to T1. Enlarge the tarmac to the south so that you have gates feeding both sides, similar to DEN in width. I see two benefits from this over the current proposal. First, the gates would be perfectly situated for operations to fully utilize our runway setup, especially 11/29. Second, walking distances are much shorter with gates on both sides and it appears this wouldn't be possible with the proposed placement, at least not the part that would connect to T1. 

This may be a naive question, but how much does the car rental facility location impact the bottom line of the airport? I get how the location can improve the experience of someone renting a car, and could see how having an easy-to-use system could leave a traveler with a better impression of both the airport and city via the transitive property, but would that actually translate into the bottom line for the airport? I don't know the economics of this very well, but having a more convenient car rental system seems unlikely to have a big effect on people choosing to fly to St. Louis. Would the airport be better off spending any money that comes their way on improvements that could directly impact landing fees, etc., to route more air traffic to/through Lambert? Or increase shipping traffic? And let the car rental agencies pool their money to upgrade facilities if they think it would push more people to rent cars at Lambert?

rbeedee wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

This may be a naive question, but how much does the car rental facility location impact the bottom line of the airport? I get how the location can improve the experience of someone renting a car, and could see how having an easy-to-use system could leave a traveler with a better impression of both the airport and city via the transitive property, but would that actually translate into the bottom line for the airport? I don't know the economics of this very well, but having a more convenient car rental system seems unlikely to have a big effect on people choosing to fly to St. Louis. Would the airport be better off spending any money that comes their way on improvements that could directly impact landing fees, etc., to route more air traffic to/through Lambert? Or increase shipping traffic? And let the car rental agencies pool their money to upgrade facilities if they think it would push more people to rent cars at Lambert?

At a place like KC, the rental cars pay money to the airport because the airport owns the land. I would think that isn't the case in St. Louis

^ Watching the webinar now, safety is #1 concern so that means taxiway/runway improvements, followed by concourse/gates then landside experience including consolidated garage. All items need to be addressed and the plan is to have all completed by 2040.

Shipping is huge, cargo up 40% from last year.

So 18 gates in T2 today and 22 needed at T2 in 2040? 

Takeaways so far, single terminal with 62 gates, 110' wide, new security building after domes, departures elevated and 4 lanes, arrivals at grade with baggage and 7 lanes, new approaches from I-70 and new consolidated garage. I like it!

Seems like they're making the most out of a tight space.

So it sounds like Southwest can’t expand much more long term in T2 without mis connection issues?

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

Takeaways so far, single terminal with 62 gates, 110' wide, new security building after domes, departures elevated and 4 lanes, arrivals at grade with baggage and 7 lanes, new approaches from I-70 and new consolidated garage. I like it!

How many gates are in T1 currently?

Does this plan open up some of the land opportunities near the airport that shadrach was saying Sam Page was alluding to? 

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

pdm_ad wrote: ↑

Jan 05, 2022

Takeaways so far, single terminal with 62 gates, 110' wide, new security building after domes, departures elevated and 4 lanes, arrivals at grade with baggage and 7 lanes, new approaches from I-70 and new consolidated garage. I like it!

How many gates are in T1 currently?

Wiki says 68. 18 in T2.

For comparison, new KCI will be 39 gates.