I'm just saying a few billionaires shouldn't have carte blanche to exploit people and line their pockets, and we'd have less crime in a fair society. I don't think that requires a cartoonish view of Evil.
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Mark, that still doesn’t give people - regardless of their background - to wreak havoc on society. There is no excuse for people to intentionally harm others whether it be a burglary, robbery, or shootings.
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I don't believe I said any such thing. But, crime rates obviously vary by city and country. If crimelyness were some kind of inherent personal characteristic you would expect more uniformity. In reality crime is obviously impacted by environmental factors, and key factors are poverty and income inequality. If it were just a matter of sending out enough police officers to round up the crime people, the country with an incredibly high incarceration rate would be the most peaceful in the world.downtown2007 wrote: ↑Jan 02, 2022Mark, that still doesn’t give people - regardless of their background - to wreak havoc on society. There is no excuse for people to intentionally harm others whether it be a burglary, robbery, or shootings.
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I haven’t seen anyone important at City Hall taking victory laps on crime so I don’t get where Downtown is coming from.
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He just has a planetary issue with black people- weather they want to dance, open a comedy club, eat dinner, be mayor etc.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Jan 03, 2022I haven’t seen anyone important at City Hall taking victory laps on crime so I don’t get where Downtown is coming from.
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MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 02, 2022I don't believe I said any such thing. But, crime rates obviously vary by city and country. If crimelyness were some kind of inherent personal characteristic you would expect more uniformity. In reality crime is obviously impacted by environmental factors, and key factors are poverty and income inequality. If it were just a matter of sending out enough police officers to round up the crime people, the country with an incredibly high incarceration rate would be the most peaceful in the world.downtown2007 wrote: ↑Jan 02, 2022Mark, that still doesn’t give people - regardless of their background - to wreak havoc on society. There is no excuse for people to intentionally harm others whether it be a burglary, robbery, or shootings.
Singapore?
Interesting before-and-after post on the Galleria in ST. Louis Memories, Vintage Photos, etc. on Facebook today. The main topic is crime before and after Metrolink. Interesting reading, if you're into that sort of thing.
I am not disputing that inequality contributes to crime, but there are plenty of countries and cities across the world that have way more poor people/lower standards of living than St. Louis and much lower homicide rates. It is much more than socio-economics, it is a cultural problem in the United States.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 02, 2022I'm just saying a few billionaires shouldn't have carte blanche to exploit people and line their pockets, and we'd have less crime in a fair society. I don't think that requires a cartoonish view of Evil.
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I'd say that not valuing the lives of minorities and workers is a cultural problem for sure.kipfilet wrote: ↑Jan 03, 2022I am not disputing that inequality contributes to crime, but there are plenty of countries and cities across the world that have way more poor people/lower standards of living than St. Louis and much lower homicide rates. It is much more than socio-economics, it is a cultural problem in the United States.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 02, 2022I'm just saying a few billionaires shouldn't have carte blanche to exploit people and line their pockets, and we'd have less crime in a fair society. I don't think that requires a cartoonish view of Evil.
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Singapore’s 1/4 incarceration per capita due to more punitive discipline?
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More punitive than being shot by the police for jaywalking?whitherSTL wrote: ↑Jan 03, 2022Singapore’s 1/4 incarceration per capita due to more punitive discipline?
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Contrasting STL with Singapore where it comes to law enforcement... Reminds me that Michael Fay, the kid that was caned for keying cars back in the early 90s, is originally from STL. Ah, memories. Otherwise, it's not reasonable to compare and contrast one of the wealthiest city-states in the world with an American City. Anyone who thinks comparative socioeconomic parity can be better found in Singapore than here doesn't know either Singapore or STL.
Otherwise, as this thread is veering wickedly back and forth, how about this as a consensus...
1. Violent crime is down in STL on a year/year basis, including homicides. That's a very good thing.
2. All crime is not gone. That's to be expected.
3. STL is not a utopia of parity. Neither is the rest of the world. In other breaking news, water is wet.
4. Neither STL nor the world will ever be a utopia of parity. It's not reasonable to expect it to be.
5. People that shoot their guns on New Year's Day suck at life.
6. There's a lot of work left to be done to decrease crime, and I hope we keep up the recent momentum.
Otherwise, as this thread is veering wickedly back and forth, how about this as a consensus...
1. Violent crime is down in STL on a year/year basis, including homicides. That's a very good thing.
2. All crime is not gone. That's to be expected.
3. STL is not a utopia of parity. Neither is the rest of the world. In other breaking news, water is wet.
4. Neither STL nor the world will ever be a utopia of parity. It's not reasonable to expect it to be.
5. People that shoot their guns on New Year's Day suck at life.
6. There's a lot of work left to be done to decrease crime, and I hope we keep up the recent momentum.
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Point missed. Wasn’t comparing both. But what do you want? Higher incarcerations here? I don’t. More punitive consequences? Ask Queen Kim G what she thinks. Or, just lawlessness?
Tough calls.
Tough calls.
Btw, the reason I’m not in favor of more incarceration in STL is because, as Bill McLellan so eloquently stated, “this city can’t even build a jail where the jail-cell locks work!”
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A popular theme of macro-pessimism develops in this thread sometimes.
- That all news is bad news, even when it's good news. "Yeah, many crimes are down (including homicides), but other crimes are up, dammit, so nothing is won even if the biggest things are improved!"
- That every option is a bad option doomed for failure. "Well, yeah, we see more people being arrested, but it's not like our jails can hold them!"
- That every outcome is a bad outcome. "Sure, we can see more arrests and sharper punishments, but it's not like anyone will ever be prosecuted!"
(and I am not defending her office in the slightest)
- That all positive news is based on a faulty premise. "Time Magazine pointing out how STL has less homicides and double the arrests? That's fake news!!! Got to be, because I think something else!!!"
- That any thought presented can immediately be discounted by a disconnected tangent. "Nothing matters, because billionaires exist! And as long as they exist, there's going to be crime committed by non-billionaires! And billionaires are all criminals anyways, just that they're not prosecuted, because EVERYTHING IS BROKEN! AAAAAGGGHHH!!"
Go watch the sunset. Drink a beer. Eat a cookie. Get some. Adopt a puppy. Watch something with Chris Farley in it. Just get some happy, y'all. Things are maybe not great, but dammit they're certainly better year/year. We can celebrate some things sometimes. Cheers.
- That all news is bad news, even when it's good news. "Yeah, many crimes are down (including homicides), but other crimes are up, dammit, so nothing is won even if the biggest things are improved!"
- That every option is a bad option doomed for failure. "Well, yeah, we see more people being arrested, but it's not like our jails can hold them!"
- That every outcome is a bad outcome. "Sure, we can see more arrests and sharper punishments, but it's not like anyone will ever be prosecuted!"
(and I am not defending her office in the slightest)
- That all positive news is based on a faulty premise. "Time Magazine pointing out how STL has less homicides and double the arrests? That's fake news!!! Got to be, because I think something else!!!"
- That any thought presented can immediately be discounted by a disconnected tangent. "Nothing matters, because billionaires exist! And as long as they exist, there's going to be crime committed by non-billionaires! And billionaires are all criminals anyways, just that they're not prosecuted, because EVERYTHING IS BROKEN! AAAAAGGGHHH!!"
Go watch the sunset. Drink a beer. Eat a cookie. Get some. Adopt a puppy. Watch something with Chris Farley in it. Just get some happy, y'all. Things are maybe not great, but dammit they're certainly better year/year. We can celebrate some things sometimes. Cheers.
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I think I'm the most optimistic person in this thread, because I think there is an actual humane solution to crime. The pessimists are the folks who think a significant portion of the population are inherently criminal and can only be suppressed by even more boots. I just think we need to address the population's material conditions.gone corporate wrote: ↑Jan 03, 2022A popular theme of macro-pessimism develops in this thread sometimes.
- That all news is bad news, even when it's good news. "Yeah, many crimes are down (including homicides), but other crimes are up, dammit, so nothing is won even if the biggest things are improved!"
- That every option is a bad option doomed for failure. "Well, yeah, we see more people being arrested, but it's not like our jails can hold them!"
- That every outcome is a bad outcome. "Sure, we can see more arrests and sharper punishments, but it's not like anyone will ever be prosecuted!"
(and I am not defending her office in the slightest)
- That all positive news is based on a faulty premise. "Time Magazine pointing out how STL has less homicides and double the arrests? That's fake news!!! Got to be, because I think something else!!!"
- That any thought presented can immediately be discounted by a disconnected tangent. "Nothing matters, because billionaires exist! And as long as they exist, there's going to be crime committed by non-billionaires! And billionaires are all criminals anyways, just that they're not prosecuted, because EVERYTHING IS BROKEN! AAAAAGGGHHH!!"
Go watch the sunset. Drink a beer. Eat a cookie. Get some. Adopt a puppy. Watch something with Chris Farley in it. Just get some happy, y'all. Things are maybe not great, but dammit they're certainly better year/year. We can celebrate some things sometimes. Cheers.
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It’s a serious cultural problem which doesn’t get discussed enough and has gotten way worse without any consequences for one’s actions.kipfilet wrote:I am not disputing that inequality contributes to crime, but there are plenty of countries and cities across the world that have way more poor people/lower standards of living than St. Louis and much lower homicide rates. It is much more than socio-economics, it is a cultural problem in the United States.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 02, 2022I'm just saying a few billionaires shouldn't have carte blanche to exploit people and line their pockets, and we'd have less crime in a fair society. I don't think that requires a cartoonish view of Evil.
'It was shocking to residents here;' Businesses, residents concerned about New Year's weekend crime downtown.
https://www.kmov.com/news/it-was-shocki ... 78dc2.html
https://www.kmov.com/news/it-was-shocki ... 78dc2.html
KSDK - Public safety advocates respond to decrease in St. Louis homicides in 2021
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime ... 6fe5e66f9d
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime ... 6fe5e66f9d
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^Whatever you do don't share it on Nextdoor. You'll get the whiny minority complaining that a decrease in murder isn't important and the mayor and police need to focus on other crimes--complete with conspiracy theories. Some people will never be happy
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How Dangerous Is A Bullet Shot In The Air? FALLING BULLET DEBUNKED