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PostOct 13, 2021#4626

STL Biz Journal: Why St. Louis is unlikely to get an NFL expansion team to resolve its Rams lawsuit
  • There'd need to be a private sector owner. It can't be owned by the City, County, and RSA (still, it'd be a hell of a talking point on unification). 
  • Mayor Jones: No public monies for stadiums. She's not alone. 
  • The article also quotes the director of the sports program at Wash U Business School, who questions STL's ability to serve as a market for 3 pro teams... which I guess brings up the issue, but for which I highly disagree to his stated contentions. 
  • Also: What precedent would it be if the NFL paid for a stadium in STL? What'd that say to Buffalo and Washington DC, both of which are in the new stadium debate right now in their markets? 
  • Also: It'd bust up the near-perfect 32-team divisions. 
I believe this whole "STL could maybe get an expansion team going forward" media push is a truck full of horse crap. 

Right off the bat, let's all recognize that STL already is the largest US market without a team. We're larger than many other NFL markets. They want STL to have a team because, no matter what StanK sharted out his mouth in January 2015 about the region's viability, it only makes sense from a business case for the League to maximize revenues. Should they ever decide to expand to 34 or 36 teams, STL will be on the very short list. Therefore, if this is an eventuality, why take it as an unwieldy settlement? This is even more dubious if there's even the slightest chance that there'll have to be some sort of public expenditures towards this. If even a nickel from the City's coffers go to pay for a new stadium - or even just part of an upgrade to the Dome - the electorate will take Mayor Jones' scalp. 

More than likely, the whole "expansion" rumor has been a fishing exercise by the League, something to float while they gauge what's possible for them as settlement options which won't directly come out of the owners' wallets. 

This also reeks of arrogance and hubris. If they actually think they can just say, "Hey STL, just forget all that past stuff, here's the 2027 STL Stallions!" and get away with it, they've got way too high an opinion of themselves. They've already shown their extreme arrogance in their conduct so far with this court case. It's their biggest weakness, and it's leading them to their own pain. The League's already got enough work to do to rebuild their brand here after StanK blew all their local goodwill to hell. 

While I really, really would love the NFL back in STL some day, I want the plaintiffs to prevail even more. I really believe the NFL can come back to STL only after STL has drawn significant blood out of the NFL. Some figurative "heads on pikes" likely must come first. 
  • Drain StanK's wallets. 
  • Fire Roger Goodell. 
  • Criminal fraud charges filed against Kevin Demoff and Eric Grubman. 
  • Full apology to STL from the League. 
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PostOct 13, 2021#4627

gone corporate wrote: ↑
Oct 13, 2021
STL Biz Journal: Why St. Louis is unlikely to get an NFL expansion team to resolve its Rams lawsuit
  • Mayor Jones: No public monies for stadiums. She's not alone. 
  • Also: What precedent would it be if the NFL paid for a stadium in STL? What'd that say to Buffalo and Washington DC, both of which are in the new stadium debate right now in their markets? 
The last time the NFL awarded an expansion team was 1999.  The expansion fee was $700 million.  

Franchise values have more than tripled since then, and I don't think that the recent $111 billion broadcast deal or the expansion of sports betting has been fully priced into those values.  So, by the time of the next round of expansion, the fee will likely be $3 billion or more.  

The NFL could simply stipulate as part of a settlement that the future franchise fee will be redirected to the plaintiffs on the condition it can only be spent for stadium improvements and maintenance. $3 billion, invested responsibly, ought to solve the local stadium situation for at least the next three decades.

And again, such an agreement doesn't cost the NFL anything right now, it doesn't cost the franchise owner or the community anything, and it makes it much more likely the market could attract a solid ownership group.

And as far as precedents go, I think it would be a preferable precedent to that set by a $1 billion+ judgment for fraud and unjust enrichment in the franchise relocation process.
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PostOct 13, 2021#4628

urbanitas wrote: ↑
Oct 13, 2021
gone corporate wrote: ↑
Oct 13, 2021
STL Biz Journal: Why St. Louis is unlikely to get an NFL expansion team to resolve its Rams lawsuit
  • Mayor Jones: No public monies for stadiums. She's not alone. 
  • Also: What precedent would it be if the NFL paid for a stadium in STL? What'd that say to Buffalo and Washington DC, both of which are in the new stadium debate right now in their markets? 
The last time the NFL awarded an expansion team was 1999.  The expansion fee was $700 million.  

Franchise values have more than tripled since then, and I don't think that the recent $111 billion broadcast deal or the expansion of sports betting has been fully priced into those values.  So, by the time of the next round of expansion, the fee will likely be $3 billion or more.  

The NFL could simply stipulate as part of a settlement that the future franchise fee will be redirected to the plaintiffs on the condition it can only be spent for stadium improvements and maintenance. $3 billion, invested responsibly, ought to solve the local stadium situation for at least the next three decades.

And again, such an agreement doesn't cost the NFL anything right now, it doesn't cost the franchise owner or the community anything, and it makes it much more likely the market could attract a solid ownership group.

And as far as precedents go, I think it would be a preferable precedent to that set by a $1 billion+ judgment for fraud and unjust enrichment in the franchise relocation process.
It costs the NFL owners $3,000,000,000 that they wouldn’t get like they normally do with expansion fees. It would also knock the NFL out of whack for its 32 team /8 division alignment. At best the team would start until 2030s, why would STL wait for that when it can money now?
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PostOct 13, 2021#4629

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Oct 13, 2021
 It costs the NFL owners $3,000,000,000 that they wouldn’t get like they normally do with expansion fees.    It would also knock the NFL out of whack for its 32 team /8 division alignment.     At best the team would start until 2030s, why would STL wait for that when it can money now?
It costs them nothing, "right now".  In reality, the stipulation would be a future franchise and future expansion fee for an unknown amount of future dollars.  That might be preferable to the risk of a multi-billion judgment paid out in as little as a couple years at the end of the appeals process, many tens of millions in legal fees spent on appeals, and the precedents set regarding the NFL's relocation policy.  How much might the NFL lose if they can no longer extort communties into building new cash cow stadiums, via the threat of relocation?  Plus, given the unknown expansion fee payday and amount, the NFL could probably spin it in the media as a win.

Do you doubt that the NFL will expand again in the next decade?  They just negotiated a long-term broadcast deal and expanded the season.  So, other than some sports betting deal, expansion is the only remaining option to get a large cash booster injection in the near future.

And St. Louis won't see any money for many years if it goes to trial, anyway.  Plus, there's the obvious risk of losing, or even winning but still walking away with a low award, say only actual, direct damages, which could be something like $10 million after the attorneys get their cut...
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PostOct 14, 2021#4630

I was thinking this morning. What if an expansion team awarded to the city was actually owned by the city? I know revenues are kept secret but it could become quite a revenue driver for the city itself. It would be nice to buy a team t-shirt and know that in the profit went directly to the city.

Granted I'm not sure how well our municipal govt could run an NFL franchise. I'm sure it would be as dysfunctional as our other agencies. Also what if the city is in a future cash crunch, would they sell the franchise?

Not advocating for this or anything, just food for thought.
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PostOct 14, 2021#4631

Thinking about the city owning a team just makes me think about the backlash every time they sign a player to multimillion-dollar contract. A team would have to be a separate entity just so people didn't think tax dollars were being spent on it.
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PostOct 14, 2021#4632

^^That'd be nice, but pigs will fly before the NFL would ever approve a franchise that is effectively a State-Owned Enterprise. 

There's too much liability in play for a City to hold even non-voting minority share of a professional sports franchise. 
1. Imagine how the Board of Aldermen would lose their minds amidst the chaos the Raiders were facing this week with the sacking of coach John Gruden when his private, internal emails with a derogatory connotation went public. Pure chaos would erupt. 
2. There's too much opportunity for political mischief and malfeasance, such as blatant kickbacks for future stadium enhancements. 
Edit:
3. Exactly what @Black02AltimaSE posted. 

The closest I could ever see an equity position be held is if a City's retirement plan trust had the chance to buy a percentage of a team. Otherwise, this just cannot and will not happen. AFAIK, that's never happened before. 

Purely theoretical: I believe it could be possible for a franchise to have some sort of ownership trust that ties the franchise to the City where it is based, where a franchise is granted to a trust that has as a condition to ownership that the franchise operates, exists, and plays their home games at the City. Should the franchise go up for sale, any future purchaser would buy into the trust that operates the team based upon these conditions, which therefore prevents the franchise from relocating for the term of the trust's existence (say 99 years). 

PostOct 14, 2021#4633

Fun times in the 22nd Circuit yesterday. 

KSDK: St. Louis judge fines 4 NFL owners for not turning over financial information
Directly Related - STL Biz Journal: St. Louis judge fines 4 NFL owners for not turning over financial information

TL/DR: Fines are being levied against the 4 franchisees who have refused to hand over their financials. More importantly, there's going to be a hearing on December 3rd on whether or not they will be held in contempt of court. 





Also: 
Sports Illustrated: Business of Football: The NFL Is Losing Its Lawsuit Against St. Louis, But Has Been in Situations Like This Before

SI's story is significant just for the sake that the story's getting more play in national media. 
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PostOct 14, 2021#4634

The small fines are well worth the cost of delaying/avoiding turning over potentially embarrassing financial information.
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PostOct 14, 2021#4635

^Big risks there for what could be considered an eventuality... 

If they continue to refuse to hand over to the courts their financial records, they risk being found in contempt of court. 
If they're found to be in contempt of court on 12/3, they very well could be sentenced to jail. 
No kidding. His Honor isn't scared of these guys' business power. 

Decembers get cold; is the workhouse heated yet? 
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PostOct 14, 2021#4636

I just laughed out loud reading that (and I’m a tough customer.) Their hubris is comical.
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PostOct 15, 2021#4637

"Leaked Jon Gruden emails showcase PR danger for the NFL in its potential billion dollar St. Louis lawsuit"

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/leaked-jon ... 24275.html
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PostOct 17, 2021#4638

Also: What precedent would it be if the NFL paid for a stadium in STL? What'd that say to Buffalo and Washington DC, both of which are in the new stadium debate right now in their markets?
It's beyond absurd that FedExField, a stadium that opened less than 25 years ago, is considered antiquated and in need of replacement.

PostOct 17, 2021#4639

gone corporate wrote: ↑
Oct 14, 2021
Purely theoretical: I believe it could be possible for a franchise to have some sort of ownership trust that ties the franchise to the City where it is based, where a franchise is granted to a trust that has as a condition to ownership that the franchise operates, exists, and plays their home games at the City. Should the franchise go up for sale, any future purchaser would buy into the trust that operates the team based upon these conditions, which therefore prevents the franchise from relocating for the term of the trust's existence (say 99 years).
The nation's 158th largest metropolitan statistical area and their 102 year old NFL team say hello. 



The city of Green Bay itself doesn't actually own the team, but the community shareholder ownership arrangement they have is such that it is effectively impossible for them to ever leave. And it's extremely unlikely that the NFL will allow any other franchise to have that sort of arrangement ever again.
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PostOct 17, 2021#4640

Idk why you guys are still kicking this team idea. There is no team coming. Page doesn’t want it, Jones doesn’t want it and they have 2/3 votes I don’t think RCA wants a team either, they rather get money for the convention complex.
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PostOct 17, 2021#4641

^Totally agree.  I enjoy a good football game, but NFL and STL don't seem to mix.  By all accounts STL has a strong case, should attempt to maximize whatever compensation they can for damages and then move on.

However, I did see this earlier in the week and it surprised me:

https://twitter.com/BrookeGrimsley/status/1447735873185976320

53% would rather have an NFL team than money.  I'd have figured the average STL citizen would bemoan the city or county going after another NFL team.  Granted it is a Twitter poll, so I suppose the margin or error may be on the order of 90+%.
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PostOct 17, 2021#4642

That fact that it was ONLY 53% from people who follow a sports newscaster on Twitter tells you that when entire population is considered that 53% for nfl team is really like 20%
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PostOct 17, 2021#4643

^Fair point...  Even though I'm pretty much not interested in STL sports I somehow still frequently watch local sport news b/c I'm interested in its affect on the region.  I could believe I'm a bit of an outlier :)
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PostOct 17, 2021#4644

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Oct 17, 2021
Idk why you guys are still kicking this team idea.  There is no team coming.  Page doesn’t want it, Jones doesn’t want it and they have 2/3 votes   I don’t think RCA wants a team either, they rather get money for the convention complex.
All these pol opinions and opinion polls are based on the assumption that it would cost the community something, whether that be public funding for a stadium or a direct monetary settlement payout.  Those opinions would change dramatically absent that assumption.

PostOct 17, 2021#4645

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑
Oct 17, 2021
^Totally agree.  I enjoy a good football game, but NFL and STL don't seem to mix.
Because St. Louis never had a team of it's own beyond a very brief period in the early '30s.  

Things would have played out much differently if the city had told the Bidwill family to sit and spin in 1960.  No question we would have had a franchise of our own instead of Chicago's rejects, with the same name as the legendary hometown baseball team, no less.   

And things would be much different today if the St. Louis Battlehawks joined the NFL.
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PostOct 18, 2021#4646

urbanitas wrote: ↑
Oct 17, 2021
OnTheEdge wrote: ↑
Oct 17, 2021
^Totally agree.  I enjoy a good football game, but NFL and STL don't seem to mix.
Because St. Louis never had a team of it's own beyond a very brief period in the early '30s.  
Numerous sports franchises have relocated over the years and proved quite successful in their new markets.

urbanitas wrote:Things would have played out much differently if the city had told the Bidwill family to sit and spin in 1960.  No question we would have had a franchise of our own instead of Chicago's rejects, with the same name as the legendary hometown baseball team, no less.   
I don't know the history of the Cardinals coming to STL 61 years ago or what STL's options were at the time.  Not sure how you can be so certain that some other option would've resulted in a different outcome tho.  I seriously doubt anyone at the time new with any degree of certainty the NFL would become the entertainment behemoth it grew into decades later.

urbanitas wrote: And things would be much different today if the St. Louis Battlehawks joined the NFL.
The Battlehawks of the XFL?  How would that even have played out?
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PostOct 19, 2021#4647

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑
Oct 17, 2021
^Totally agree.  I enjoy a good football game, but NFL and STL don't seem to mix.  By all accounts STL has a strong case, should attempt to maximize whatever compensation they can for damages and then move on.

However, I did see this earlier in the week and it surprised me:

https://twitter.com/BrookeGrimsley/status/1447735873185976320

53% would rather have an NFL team than money.  I'd have figured the average STL citizen would bemoan the city or county going after another NFL team.  Granted it is a Twitter poll, so I suppose the margin or error may be on the order of 90+%.
Because they don't actually care about civic pride.  They'd rather have sportsball to come to town a dozen times a year to drink beer away from their wives, then go back home.  It's all part of the DREAM!
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PostOct 19, 2021#4648

^Got to disagree with you there. Civic pride can come from the sports team with your City's name on it, as well as avenging those who wronged your City.

I can truly understand the desire that so many have for a new team. I want football back. Very, very much. I was a fan of the game, and of the Rams, and I'd like to be a fan of pro football again (more than just the Battlehawks). I attended our last game, that Thursday night game where they were dressed up in those stupid all-yellow uniforms. I cheered my head off and stayed afterwards to keep cheering while ESPN was broadcasting, so the audience would know STL fans are high quality NFL fans. We were loud. Arnold Donald cheered us back. I'd like times like that back. 

As well, I absolutely want to stick it to those who wronged us. A favorable verdict, plus billions of dollars, would certainly help assuage my anger. (Personally, I'd like StanK, Goodell, and the rest of those bastards put in prisoner stockades in Kiener Plaza and held there for at least a week on top of taking their excess ill-gotten returns, but I digress...)

I want both football and vengeance against StanK, the NFL, et.al. I bet most people do. Same time, that poll didn't ask if people wanted both options, but to pick what they want more: Football, or Vengeance. 

Let's consider how many, many people see our choices here: 
A. Football. 
  • We get a pro team back and return to the status quo, likely better than it was before. 
  • Fun returns, which is wonderful. 
B. Vengeance. 
  • We get the opportunity to win a verdict. 
  • Assuming we win: Subsequently, there's a decade of appeals. 
  • We eventually see billions go to trial lawyers.  
  • Down the line, we see that the politicians have the chance to spend these billions on their pet projects. 
  • The City does see multiple capital allocations to high-priority projects. This is not as enjoyable as going to a football game, and not as easy to conceptualize in an online poll. 
So, yeah, let's not say people who'd be happy with a football team back in STL don't have civic pride. They're just not swimming in this issue like we are. Just a thought. 
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PostOct 19, 2021#4649

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑
Oct 18, 2021
 I don't know the history of the Cardinals coming to STL 61 years ago or what STL's options were at the time.  Not sure how you can be so certain that some other option would've resulted in a different outcome tho.  I seriously doubt anyone at the time new with any degree of certainty the NFL would become the entertainment behemoth it grew into decades later.
Part of the reason the football Cardinals had a rough run was they were never welcome in St. Louis.

In the late 1950's and 1960 the NFL Chicago Cardinals were circling the drain financially. Things were so bad they were close to bankruptcy and possible contraction. At the same time the AFL was spinning up and Ortwein side of the Busch family was looking to place an expansion team here in St. Louis. To block that possibility the NFL moved the Cardinals to St. Louis. From that point on Auggie Busch, the rest of the family and their allies treated the Bidwills pretty poorly. That's why the city vs county fight ensued and some of the big corporations/old school St. Louis power brokers didn't get involved or aligned with the Busch clan. The Cardinals slumped off to Arizona to play in a college football stadium for another 15 years.

I have almost no doubt that if St. Louis had gotten a Busch family owned AFL team in 1961 or 1962, they would still be here today.
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PostOct 20, 2021#4650

Interestink…
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