The CWE has Schnuck's, Whole Foods, Straub's, and Fields Foods, with Aldi, Golden Grocer and soon Fresh Thyme all within one block of the neighborhood. That's a lot of grocery stores to somehow have no competition.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021The CWE is a good example of no competition for Schnucks. Schnucks and Straubs/Whole Foods are not competing for the same customers.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021As Moorlander points out, there are areas with a ton of competition. The city does have an example of this as well in the CWE where there’s a Whole Foods, Schnucks, and Straubs close to each other. But if we want to focus on specific areas like north StL where there are food deserts, then we can’t just compare those neighborhoods to Boulder or some mid Atlantic city.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021maybe. but, again, i've lived in two cities with less than a third the population of St. Louis City that have significantly more supermarket diversity. one was Boulder, CO, and the other is a small Mid Atlantic city.
Yep. Just one block out from the CWE.imran wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021^Small correction. Golden Grocer moved to FPSE recently.
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Aldi is not in the CWE. And again, the Fields Foods is not a grocery store. Its a convenience mart. Mostly soft drinks, junk food, and booze.
Also, just naming stores does not prove there is competition. Aldi, Schnucks, Straubs/Whole foods are all targeting distinct sub-markets within the broader grocery market. If you're a mid-market grocery customer Schnucks is your only option.
Also, just naming stores does not prove there is competition. Aldi, Schnucks, Straubs/Whole foods are all targeting distinct sub-markets within the broader grocery market. If you're a mid-market grocery customer Schnucks is your only option.
Cheaper groceries may be available to me, but I would never deign to shop for them, since I'm a proud 'mid-market grocery customer.' Stop the monopoly!
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Now you're just being an ass. Fresh fish, meat and baked goods are not available at Aldi or Save-ALot. Nor are many fresh produce options. Perhaps if there was more mid-market competition, folks relegated to save-a-lot might actually be able to access the higher quality products.wabash wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Cheaper groceries may be available to me, but I would never deign to shop for them, since I'm a proud 'mid-market grocery customer.' Stop the monopoly!
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Who would those mid-market competitors be? Kroger has stores in central Illinois so I guess they could leverage some of that distribution network to expand to St. Louis. But I highly doubt they would want to because there's just so many grocers already in the region. And even if they did, they'd most likely look at the CWE, 64/170, suburbs rather than areas where food deserts exist.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
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Three options immediately come to mind: Hy-vee, Kroger and Meijer. Jewel and County Market could also work.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Who would those mid-market competitors be? Kroger has stores in central Illinois so I guess they could leverage some of that distribution network to expand to St. Louis. But I highly doubt they would want to because there's just so many grocers already in the region. And even if they did, they'd most likely look at the CWE, 64/170, suburbs rather than areas where food deserts exist.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
St. Louis high food cost is a metropolitan wide issue, not just a city problem.
St. Louis is not Boulder. I've only been there three times but all I remember were King Sooper, Safeway, Trader Joes and Whole Foods. Boulder is also a college town that's 90% white, median home price nearly $600,000 and median family income of $115,000. But sure, let's compare St. Louis and Boulder grocery stores.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021maybe. but, again, i've lived in two cities with less than a third the population of St. Louis City that have significantly more supermarket diversity. one was Boulder, CO, and the other is a small Mid Atlantic city.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Well that’s not the same as Schnucks or Dierbergs having some kind of monopoly. That’s just another symptom of the city needing to turn around the population losses.
Aren't HyVee, Kroger and Meijer all anti union? I know unions is why Kroger left. Plus a friend in Springfield IL lived next door to a store manager of the Meijer up there and he said they would never come to St. Louis because of Union 655's hold on the market.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Three options immediately come to mind: Hy-vee, Kroger and Meijer. Jewel could also work.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Who would those mid-market competitors be? Kroger has stores in central Illinois so I guess they could leverage some of that distribution network to expand to St. Louis. But I highly doubt they would want to because there's just so many grocers already in the region. And even if they did, they'd most likely look at the CWE, 64/170, suburbs rather than areas where food deserts exist.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
St. Louis high food cost is a metropolitan wide issue, not just a city problem.
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Who cares? Many examples of disparate cost in comparable cities were enumerated in earlier posts.dweebe wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021St. Louis is not Boulder. I've only been there three times but all I remember were King Sooper, Safeway, Trader Joes and Whole Foods. Boulder is also a college town that's 90% white, median home price nearly $600,000 and median family income of $115,000. But sure, let's compare St. Louis and Boulder grocery stores.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021maybe. but, again, i've lived in two cities with less than a third the population of St. Louis City that have significantly more supermarket diversity. one was Boulder, CO, and the other is a small Mid Atlantic city.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Well that’s not the same as Schnucks or Dierbergs having some kind of monopoly. That’s just another symptom of the city needing to turn around the population losses.
This is a great point. I honestly don’t know the answer but it would make sense.dweebe wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Aren't HyVee, Kroger and Meijer all anti union? I know unions is why Kroger left. Plus a friend in Springfield IL lived next door to a store manager of the Meijer up there and he said they would never come to St. Louis because of Union 655's hold on the market.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Three options immediately come to mind: Hy-vee, Kroger and Meijer. Jewel could also work.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Who would those mid-market competitors be? Kroger has stores in central Illinois so I guess they could leverage some of that distribution network to expand to St. Louis. But I highly doubt they would want to because there's just so many grocers already in the region. And even if they did, they'd most likely look at the CWE, 64/170, suburbs rather than areas where food deserts exist.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
St. Louis high food cost is a metropolitan wide issue, not just a city problem.
It seems that if you want more variety here in St. Louis, it's going to have to be at stores that don't want unions in the building.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021This is a great point. I honestly don’t know the answer but it would make sense.dweebe wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Aren't HyVee, Kroger and Meijer all anti union? I know unions is why Kroger left. Plus a friend in Springfield IL lived next door to a store manager of the Meijer up there and he said they would never come to St. Louis because of Union 655's hold on the market.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021
Three options immediately come to mind: Hy-vee, Kroger and Meijer. Jewel could also work.
St. Louis high food cost is a metropolitan wide issue, not just a city problem.
Maybe if Schnucks finishes closing all the old Shop n Saves, someone will see an opening in the middle of the St. Louis market.
Sure St. Louis needs more grocery competition if you find a reason to eliminate every one of the other grocery chains from the discussion. In this thread, people have named 12 alternatives to Schnucks and Dierbergs all of which have multiple locations - Straub's, Fields, Aldi, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Walmart, Sams, Target, Costco, Fresh Thyme, Ruler, Sav-A-Lot. Fresh Market and Lucky's tried but bailed out. You can toss in United Provisions, GreenLeaf, Global Foods and a number of other one-off niche grocers sprinkled around the market.
STL's playing field is pretty similar to most major markets. Most of the market share is dominated by Walmart and two major grocery chains. Boulder was mentioned above but what about it's big brother Denver which is about equal in population to STL? King Soopers (Kroger) has over a third of the market followed by Walmart, Safeway, Target and Costco. The first store to show up on their list that we don't have is Sprouts which has about 3% of market share and is essentially a carbon copy of Fresh Thyme. Chicago's top four are all big chains - Jewel (Alberstons), Walmart, Costco, Marianos (Kroger). The same story in big cities.
St. Louis is unique in that two of their top three have their HQ right here in the market (Walmart is sandwiched between Schnucks and Dierbergs).
STL's playing field is pretty similar to most major markets. Most of the market share is dominated by Walmart and two major grocery chains. Boulder was mentioned above but what about it's big brother Denver which is about equal in population to STL? King Soopers (Kroger) has over a third of the market followed by Walmart, Safeway, Target and Costco. The first store to show up on their list that we don't have is Sprouts which has about 3% of market share and is essentially a carbon copy of Fresh Thyme. Chicago's top four are all big chains - Jewel (Alberstons), Walmart, Costco, Marianos (Kroger). The same story in big cities.
St. Louis is unique in that two of their top three have their HQ right here in the market (Walmart is sandwiched between Schnucks and Dierbergs).
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I'd say the St. Louis market is readily distinguishable from Denver. Denver's top 5 grocers are mid market grocers and all have at least 9% of the market share (albeit difficult to classify Walmart). In St. Louis, only 3 of our top 5 are mid-market.jbacott wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021STL's playing field is pretty similar to most major markets. Most of the market share is dominated by Walmart and two major grocery chains. Boulder was mentioned above but what about it's big brother Denver which is about equal in population to STL? King Soopers (Kroger) has over a third of the market followed by Walmart, Safeway, Target and Costco.
https://www.axios.com/king-soopers-reig ... 0bd9c.html
https://www.stltoday.com/online/st-loui ... 158aa.html
Kroger wasn't the first time they were here though. I don't think they see STL as an attractive market anyway, out of their Ruler stores.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Jewel and Kroger are unionized.
I guess I'm not entirely understanding your definition of "mid market grocers".BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021I'd say the St. Louis market is readily distinguishable from Denver. Denver's top 5 grocers are mid market grocers and all have at least 9% of the market share (albeit difficult to classify Walmart). In St. Louis, only 3 of our top 5 are mid-market.jbacott wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021STL's playing field is pretty similar to most major markets. Most of the market share is dominated by Walmart and two major grocery chains. Boulder was mentioned above but what about it's big brother Denver which is about equal in population to STL? King Soopers (Kroger) has over a third of the market followed by Walmart, Safeway, Target and Costco.
https://www.axios.com/king-soopers-reig ... 0bd9c.html
https://www.stltoday.com/online/st-loui ... 158aa.html
I guess what Shop n Save used to be?jbacott wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021I guess I'm not entirely understanding your definition of "mid market grocers".BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021I'd say the St. Louis market is readily distinguishable from Denver. Denver's top 5 grocers are mid market grocers and all have at least 9% of the market share (albeit difficult to classify Walmart). In St. Louis, only 3 of our top 5 are mid-market.jbacott wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021STL's playing field is pretty similar to most major markets. Most of the market share is dominated by Walmart and two major grocery chains. Boulder was mentioned above but what about it's big brother Denver which is about equal in population to STL? King Soopers (Kroger) has over a third of the market followed by Walmart, Safeway, Target and Costco.
https://www.axios.com/king-soopers-reig ... 0bd9c.html
https://www.stltoday.com/online/st-loui ... 158aa.html
And I guess Schnucks is upper middle or lower upper?
It's a symptom of the ever-expanding 64/170 + Hanley brick-and-mortar retail extravaganza, to which you alluded. Brentwood-Richmond Heights-Maplewood, and soon U City, sucks so much of the in-person shopping $$$ out of the city that you have to consider each of those grocery stores as direct competition.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
It's not a problem of population distribution per se, it's a problem of decades of neglect and poor, reactive planning and development by city leaders, an all-too-efficient highway system, and the resulting reliance on, and preference for, personal vehicle transport.
This is the biggest reason for the city retail desert. Obviously most people in this city are going to drive to do their grocery shopping. What's the incentive to drive to a grocery store anywhere in the central city, when just 10-15 minutes more on the highway gives you access to just about every grocery, every restaurant, and every discount and big box retail chain in the metro area, plus a regional shopping mall?
While we sit here talking about how overpriced and bad all the grocery stores in St. Louis are, can I also complain?
Why is it every single Schnucks is laid out differently? No two stores are the same: not even close. Even the stores that have always been Schnucks are laid out differently.
Just add it to the list of why St. Louis is such a bad place to live.
Why is it every single Schnucks is laid out differently? No two stores are the same: not even close. Even the stores that have always been Schnucks are laid out differently.
Just add it to the list of why St. Louis is such a bad place to live.
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true, King Sooper and Safeway are very upscale.dweebe wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021St. Louis is not Boulder. I've only been there three times but all I remember were King Sooper, Safeway, Trader Joes and Whole Foods. Boulder is also a college town that's 90% white, median home price nearly $600,000 and median family income of $115,000. But sure, let's compare St. Louis and Boulder grocery stores.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021maybe. but, again, i've lived in two cities with less than a third the population of St. Louis City that have significantly more supermarket diversity. one was Boulder, CO, and the other is a small Mid Atlantic city.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Well that’s not the same as Schnucks or Dierbergs having some kind of monopoly. That’s just another symptom of the city needing to turn around the population losses.
they also have Sprouts and a number of smaller, independent markets.the Mid Atlantic city that i mentioned is even less populated than Boulder and MUCH closer, demographically, to St. Louis.
Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix, Giant, Safeway, Acme, King Soopers, HyVee, Price Chopper, etc. etc. etc. granted many have not yet breached the Midwest but i'm sure some of them are looking to expand into new markets.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Three options immediately come to mind: Hy-vee, Kroger and Meijer. Jewel and County Market could also work.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Who would those mid-market competitors be? Kroger has stores in central Illinois so I guess they could leverage some of that distribution network to expand to St. Louis. But I highly doubt they would want to because there's just so many grocers already in the region. And even if they did, they'd most likely look at the CWE, 64/170, suburbs rather than areas where food deserts exist.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
St. Louis high food cost is a metropolitan wide issue, not just a city problem.
here's a national/regional list from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ted_States
Sounds like we live in an overpriced, underserved food desert. Why not have a number of those chains come here?urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jun 16, 2021Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix, Giant, Safeway, Acme, King Soopers, HyVee, Price Chopper, etc. etc. etc. granted many have not yet breached the Midwest but i'm sure some of them are looking to expand into new markets.BellaVilla wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Three options immediately come to mind: Hy-vee, Kroger and Meijer. Jewel and County Market could also work.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jun 15, 2021Who would those mid-market competitors be? Kroger has stores in central Illinois so I guess they could leverage some of that distribution network to expand to St. Louis. But I highly doubt they would want to because there's just so many grocers already in the region. And even if they did, they'd most likely look at the CWE, 64/170, suburbs rather than areas where food deserts exist.
Look, I get that there is a need for more food options in areas of the city. Not disputing that at all. But this isn't something that's a symptom of lack of competition. It's a symptom of downward trending population and businesses (grocers) identifying that their best bet to have a store in the city and maximize profit is in the central corridor.
St. Louis high food cost is a metropolitan wide issue, not just a city problem.
here's a national/regional list from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ted_States
^ Publix is employee owned and doesn't really operate outside the Southeast. Their westernmost location is in Alabama. Highly doubt they'll ever come this way. Safeway is owned by Albertsons and King Scoopers by Kroger. Others have already kind of laid out some good reasons as to why another large chain probably doesn't want to compete in a stagnant market like St. Louis. Especially in an incredibly low-margin business like supermarkets.
HyVees are down at the lake and in some other Midwestern markets and I would put them in the same league as Schnucks to be honest with you. I'm not sure HyVee entering this market would change anything, especially on the lack of options for city residents. They're all over KC and not a single store anywhere near the urban core. They'd probably just end up further saturating the suburban areas here.
Price Choppers/Cutters are in KC and Springfield (I think)...this is one brand I could see providing some benefit to the St. Louis market. Definitely lower cost and the quality of the stores are a ways below Schuncks, HyVee, HenHouse (another KC chain) and most certainly Dierbergs. But they're full service supermarkets with all the usual supermarket things like deli, meat and seafood counters, etc. I stopped shopping at those after I graduated college because I found the stores in urban KC to be incredibly dumpy and old. Still, would be a better option than a Target or a convenience store lol. But again I think it comes down to the nature of entering new markets in this industry. It involves a ton of risk for really low margins and a shitload of competition. Probably the same reason you don't see Schnucks and Dierbergs itching to open in new markets.
Personally, I'm a Schnucks man. I love em. My two buddies who live in Denver rave about them all the time because they absolutely hate King Scoopers and Safeway lol.
HyVees are down at the lake and in some other Midwestern markets and I would put them in the same league as Schnucks to be honest with you. I'm not sure HyVee entering this market would change anything, especially on the lack of options for city residents. They're all over KC and not a single store anywhere near the urban core. They'd probably just end up further saturating the suburban areas here.
Price Choppers/Cutters are in KC and Springfield (I think)...this is one brand I could see providing some benefit to the St. Louis market. Definitely lower cost and the quality of the stores are a ways below Schuncks, HyVee, HenHouse (another KC chain) and most certainly Dierbergs. But they're full service supermarkets with all the usual supermarket things like deli, meat and seafood counters, etc. I stopped shopping at those after I graduated college because I found the stores in urban KC to be incredibly dumpy and old. Still, would be a better option than a Target or a convenience store lol. But again I think it comes down to the nature of entering new markets in this industry. It involves a ton of risk for really low margins and a shitload of competition. Probably the same reason you don't see Schnucks and Dierbergs itching to open in new markets.
Personally, I'm a Schnucks man. I love em. My two buddies who live in Denver rave about them all the time because they absolutely hate King Scoopers and Safeway lol.