Northside-Southside Metrolink

dylank · PostMay 14, 2020#14012020-05-14T15:49+00:00

All good points ^^

Would be cool if they eliminated parking requirements for developments within a mile radius of stations. It costs so much for developers to build parking. Think this could spawn more projects from small, local developers who don't have funds or want funds to build a massive proposals/ massive garages.

SeattleNative · PostMay 14, 2020#14022020-05-14T16:04+00:00

While we’re on the topic, the construction of Expo at Forest Park (and the temporary removal of free rider parking) is going to very effectively prove that we don’t need parking around our urban stations to encourage ridership.

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gone corporate · PostMay 14, 2020#14032020-05-14T16:09+00:00

What do I loathe about the N-S plans? Pushing the trains into the densest urban grid we have, east of Tucker. This will just screw up the grid's flow. And for what, so there's a more direct transfer from the subway to the street-running cars? Nope, not worth the cost of our grid. It'd be worse than the Delmar Trolley.

Instead, it should hub up on Tucker, which is already a big boulevard with elements of concrete median down it already.

Our goal should absolutely be to mirror Canal Street in New Orleans onto Tucker Boulevard.

Tucker is ideally designed to meet the needs of a N-S Metrolink, whether streetcar-like or ART/Trackless Tram, and nothing will prompt redevelopment & revitalization like this. Hell, the entirety of Tucker would see massive redevelopment immediately upon such a thing coming into being, every inch from Cass down to 64/40's overpass. Wash Ave would be new again. And there'd never be another word about the Jefferson Arms not proceeding.

And if we want to make sure there's Metrolink quick transfer abilities, then have the N-S veer off Tucker at Clark or Market, so it can then pass proximate to the existing multi-modal transit hub at Clark and 14th.

addxb2 · PostMay 14, 2020#14042020-05-14T18:32+00:00

Also watching closely UKs Vivarail. They’ve manufactured an electric heavy rail option for passenger service. From my understanding, any current industrial rail line could share with passenger services with very little investment in actual infrastructure.

Hoping to enter US market soon.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/vivar ... 09.article

Kirkwood-Downtown-Alton commuter rail for example.

bwcrow1s · PostMay 14, 2020#14052020-05-14T21:38+00:00

The canal street example is great. I've always advocated for tucker. But then again I've always wanted Gravois over Jefferson, though not to any severe extent. The complication of connections is a tough one when you're not able to go underground or elevated, and need to make a certain number of turns to execute it. Will people still use it if they have to walk a couple blocks for a connecting train?

STLinCHI · PostMay 15, 2020#14062020-05-15T03:15+00:00

gone corporate wrote: ↑
May 14, 2020
What do I loathe about the N-S plans? Pushing the trains into the densest urban grid we have, east of Tucker. This will just screw up the grid's flow. And for what, so there's a more direct transfer from the subway to the street-running cars? Nope, not worth the cost of our grid. It'd be worse than the Delmar Trolley.

Instead, it should hub up on Tucker, which is already a big boulevard with elements of concrete median down it already.

Our goal should absolutely be to mirror Canal Street in New Orleans onto Tucker Boulevard.

Tucker is ideally designed to meet the needs of a N-S Metrolink, whether streetcar-like or ART/Trackless Tram, and nothing will prompt redevelopment & revitalization like this. Hell, the entirety of Tucker would see massive redevelopment immediately upon such a thing coming into being, every inch from Cass down to 64/40's overpass. Wash Ave would be new again. And there'd never be another word about the Jefferson Arms not proceeding.

And if we want to make sure there's Metrolink quick transfer abilities, then have the N-S veer off Tucker at Clark or Market, so it can then pass proximate to the existing multi-modal transit hub at Clark and 14th.

Couldn't agree more. Tucker has the width and feeds City Hall, Municipal and Federal court system, SLU Law extension, Washington Ave's heart and Squareville. I'd like to see the line serve the Purina complex plus Soulard and BPW neighborhoods by heading down Gravois all the way to Grand then south on Grand. (would service South Grand district). South on Jefferson off of Gravois would be OK too. Put a station right where Tucker overpass crosses Metro for transfers. Move Union Station Metro stop to west side of complex near 20th Street. Mainline stops would be at 2000, 1400 and 1200 west. Keep heavy Metro bus transfers at 14th.

PeterXCV · PostMay 15, 2020#14072020-05-15T13:25+00:00

I agree, Tucker would be a much better route through Downtown than 9th/10th. Something that is a problem for light rail in a bunch of cities including Baltimore and Portland is that street-running trains crawl through Downtown, making crosstown trips very long. The transfer benefit is also slim considering it would run by Civic Center, those traveling from the Northside would save a few minutes on a transfer to Red/Blue.

I don't think there's much chance they'd reconsider Jefferson for Gravois on the southside, which I think is good actually. While it does go through the meat of South City, Gravois has very complex intersections and is mostly auto-oriented except for in Bevo. I don't see that many people wanting to live in apartments facing Gravois itself, also S Jefferson is densely populated with more intact urban fabric.

symphonicpoet · PostMay 18, 2020#14082020-05-18T01:29+00:00

^Jefferson is a good routing. It's only the 9th-10th part that really should be Tucker. But seeing as they're baking it into the convention center plans I doubt very much they'll change it at this point. I live in hope, as I think a Tucker alignment would give you a much larger portion of downtown within a few blocks of a station. But . . . I don't see it happening.

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostMay 18, 2020#14092020-05-18T22:15+00:00

I would love to eventually see a branch of N/S break off at Jefferson and Gravois, run down Gravois and turn down Chippewa before crossing the River Des Peres and meeting up with the Shrewsbury Metro Station. The whole route is plenty wide to accommodate. I would also argue that while Gravois is car centric, it is a nce opportunity for nice and dense infill TOD. The whole corridor could eventually be filled with interesting triangular 4-6 story apartments.

There is my pipe dream for today. I look forward to it opening in 2068.

symphonicpoet · PostMay 19, 2020#14102020-05-19T08:05+00:00

^That's not a bad pipe-dream. I like the way you think.

. . . Or smoke. Or both, as appropriate.

RuskiSTL · PostMay 19, 2020#14112020-05-19T10:46+00:00

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑
May 18, 2020
I would love to eventually see a branch of N/S break off at Jefferson and Gravois, run down Gravois and turn down Chippewa before crossing the River Des Peres and meeting up with the Shrewsbury Metro Station. The whole route is plenty wide to accommodate. I would also argue that while Gravois is car centric, it is a nce opportunity for nice and dense infill TOD. The whole corridor could eventually be filled with interesting triangular 4-6 story apartments.

There is my pipe dream for today. I look forward to it opening in 2068.

If we're talking pipe dreams.....I'm gonna need you to dream a bit bigger.....

quincunx · PostAug 18, 2020#14122020-08-18T02:19+00:00

City of St. Louis Joins Bi-State Development in Moving Forward on Public Transit Expansion within Northside-Southside Corridor

https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... rridor.cfm

addxb2 · PostAug 18, 2020#14132020-08-18T03:37+00:00

Fantastic! Seems like we’re finally moving towards BRT!

SeattleNative · PostAug 18, 2020#14142020-08-18T03:44+00:00

addxb2 wrote:Fantastic! Seems like we’re finally moving towards BRT!

If we shift towards BRT, I hope we use the savings to add a second line down Kingshighway.

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goat314 · PostAug 18, 2020#14152020-08-18T12:07+00:00

Were definitely going to be getting BRT. Unfortunately, light rail is just not feasible without a major contribution from the county. With that said, I would like to see a mix of streetcar and BRT in north and south city.

addxb2 · PostAug 18, 2020#14162020-08-18T12:42+00:00

“emerging propulsion systems, gold standard bus rapid transit, and other up-and-coming hybrid systems that blur the lines between bus and rail service.”

It’s like they took a sentence from this tram technology talking points.

SeattleNative · PostAug 18, 2020#14172020-08-18T13:11+00:00

addxb2 wrote:“emerging propulsion systems, gold standard bus rapid transit, and other up-and-coming hybrid systems that blur the lines between bus and rail service.”

It’s like they took a sentence from this tram technology talking points.

This is the trackless tram* being used in Chinese cities, yeah?

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sc4mayor · PostAug 18, 2020#14182020-08-18T13:53+00:00

goat314 wrote: ↑
Aug 18, 2020
Were definitely going to be getting BRT. Unfortunately, light rail is just not feasible without a major contribution from the county. With that said, I would like to see a mix of streetcar and BRT in north and south city.

Or a major contribution from the private sector. It did say they plan on searching for funding for N/S light rail...I doubt they’ll find enough but there are plenty of wealthy folks and businesses in St. Louis where a P3 would probably be feasible.

I was a little thrown by the number they threw out there though. I was always under the assumption that N/S would be built in phases and phase one (between Fairground Park and Cherokee) clocked in around $600-$650 million. Then a billion or so for a line going city limits to city limits and closer to $2 billion for a full build out including the county portions? Maybe that’s changed, or they’re referring to the entire city portion here.

My first preference would be them leveraging the private sector to build the light rail, however unlikely that may be. But gold standard BRT or more specifically these trackless trams would be a major step forward.

SeattleNative · PostAug 18, 2020#14192020-08-18T14:11+00:00

If trackless tram can give us 10 minute headways, signal priority, dedicated lanes, platforms, and all that for 2/10 the cost of light rail, I think it’s the right option for a cash strapped city that won’t get any help from its state.

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dredger · PostAug 18, 2020#14202020-08-18T15:42+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
Aug 18, 2020
City of St. Louis Joins Bi-State Development in Moving Forward on Public Transit Expansion within Northside-Southside Corridor

https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... rridor.cfm

Unfortunately, I can't get too excited as I read this as one more study with a minimal amount of funds committed. Another couple of years keeping some consultants and experts busy.

I echo Gone Corporate comments on streetcar done right with the example of Canal St in New Orleans as well as Goat314 comments on a streetcar overlay with BRT. I believe St. Louis City should have gone in on a more city focused north south streetcar lines a while ago. The political and therefore the financial support is not going to happen outside of city limits, whether it be state or county (or until county gets its Westport extension). The city has some good corridors and streets to build out some modest streetcar lines along the lines of New Orleans that can compliment the existing metrolink spine.

Laife Fulk · PostAug 18, 2020#14212020-08-18T15:50+00:00

I agree with SeattleNative on this. If BRT lines can be implemented at a fraction of the cost, while still having dedicated right of ways, platforms, etc. then it should be a no-brainer. There's plenty of roads that need road diets that could be dedicated to BRT and it would also be way easier and cheaper to adjust routes in the future without having to rip up rail infrastructure.

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 18, 2020#14222020-08-18T16:23+00:00

Top notch BRT = $20,000,000 per mile or $160m for 8 miles NS route

Laife Fulk · PostAug 18, 2020#14232020-08-18T16:28+00:00

Do you happen to know how much money the city has collected for NS expansion to date? I'd think that the $160M price tag for 8 miles would be almost immediately possible based upon what they've collected so far and what they'll collect moving forward.

quincunx · PostAug 18, 2020#14242020-08-18T16:42+00:00

sc4mayor wrote: ↑
Aug 18, 2020
goat314 wrote: ↑
Aug 18, 2020
Were definitely going to be getting BRT. Unfortunately, light rail is just not feasible without a major contribution from the county. With that said, I would like to see a mix of streetcar and BRT in north and south city.
Or a major contribution from the private sector. It did say they plan on searching for funding for N/S light rail...I doubt they’ll find enough but there are plenty of wealthy folks and businesses in St. Louis where a P3 would probably be feasible.

How do you figure?

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 18, 2020#14252020-08-18T16:44+00:00

I do. At end of July the City had collected and has sitting in the bank about $32,000,000 that is dedicated specifically for this. it started collecting in the late 2017. It collects about $18-20m a year but 40% is spent on other things as outlined in the ordinance- ie affordable housing

Northside-Southside Metrolink

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