Rename St. Louis

gone corporate · PostJun 24, 2020#512020-06-24T18:30+00:00

This is hands down one of the absolute dumbest things I've heard of in a very, very long time.

Everyone here needs to calm the farking hell down ASAP and recognize that this is the most bullcrap idea in forever that will never see the light of day. Seriously, renaming STL because of new politically correct purity tests that don't even get the history right? And in the process craps on a major religion? I get, and avidly support, getting rid of monuments to the confederates (they're all traitors and should be shamed), but this is wholly different and absolutely ridiculous.

This crap reminds me of the Great Cultural Revolution. I've known a few people who've lived through it, Chinese business leaders who told me about how their fathers were taken away when they were kids out of a fanatical wellspring to rewrite Chinese history to eliminate the past. Want to see grown men cry? Find a Chinese migrant who lived through this and ask them about what happened to their fathers.

Reading this has me listening to Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles right now...

If Trump gets reelected in November, it'll be directly because people get sick of bullcrap like this.
Enough with the purity tests and self-flagellation.

Know what these new fanatical people need? A Holiday.
Pol... Pot! Pol... Pot!

dbInSouthCity · PostJun 24, 2020#522020-06-24T20:05+00:00

Imagine voting for the worst and most unamerican & corrupt President in history over a patriot like Biden because some dumb far leftists wanted to remove statues and names of racists. What a country.

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostJun 24, 2020#532020-06-24T20:07+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
Imagine voting for the worst and most unamerican & corrupt President in history over a patriot like Biden because some dumb far leftists wanted to remove statues and names of racists. What a country.

I had the same thought, but didn't want to offend anyone.

dbInSouthCity · PostJun 24, 2020#542020-06-24T20:25+00:00

ricke002 wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
Imagine voting for the worst and most unamerican & corrupt President in history over a patriot like Biden because some dumb far leftists wanted to remove statues and names of racists. What a country.
I had the same thought, but didn't want to offend anyone.

I always aim to offend stupidity, it cannot be reasoned with so why try

gone corporate · PostJun 24, 2020#552020-06-24T20:48+00:00

^Never underestimate the degree of unease people feel in the face of change.
Especially those societal changes made by strangers who say they know better.

And never, never think stupidity is not a factor at play.

gary kreie · PostJun 24, 2020#562020-06-24T21:01+00:00

ricke002 wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
gary kreie wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
ricke002 wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
The false equivalency of owning fellow human beings and using a plastic bottle is pretty good. Nice job!
I did NOT say that at all and I resent your interpretation. I asked a few questions, and mentioned, light-heartedly, a couple of things that our grandkids might find less than exemplary about our generation years from now -- when all meat is plant-base, say, and slaughtering large defenseless mammals for a fricking hamburger is considered uncivilized.
Your answer to my first question is clearly - no, it is not risky to name streets after current heroes. That's fine. You agree with folks of the past who believed there was no risk in naming streets after the heroes of the time. The jury is still out on that question for me in light of recent statue topplings.
Whatever the intent was/is, you equated slavery with eating a cheeseburger. And guess what, in 100 years, maybe carnivores will be thought of as out of touch dillwads. That's fine. If you're worried about your legacy that much, write down all of your stances on all issues, so that future generations will know exactly how you feel about any particular topic. And in 200 years, maybe slavery will be looked upon as acceptable again and they can throw monuments up to slaveholders again. As it stands now, we seem to be on the side of "slavery = bad so we shouldn't glorify those who thought otherwise"

I did not equate slavery with eating a cheeseburger. But you just did. I pointed out the risks of naming streets after people whose lives are not able to be 100% vetted for sins, whether judged by current standards or by future standards. To make street names eternal and not subject to every bend of political thought, it might be better to name streets after trees, numbers, and states. Or we could just go to full latitude longitude addresses and forget street names altogether for no other reason than to keep some forum members from proving Godwin's law.

symphonicpoet · PostJun 24, 2020#572020-06-24T23:42+00:00

Okay . . . I feel like I got this amped up in a way I shouldn't have. For this I sincerely apologize. I felt just a tad annoye4d when Framer, whom I have met and whom I respect, elaborated Lee's history with the army corps. (Of which I'm aware, largely as a consequence of reading the rock which I suggested we remove.) My reaction was, perhaps, out of proportion to the non-crime. I respect Framer, DBinSouthCity, Gone Corporate, Gary Kreie, and about everyone else in this thread, named and unnamed. There's lots of good folks here. I shoot from the hip a little too often, and maybe most of us do. But I don't think anyone here is a Nazi. Or a Confederate. I don't even think anyone here is likely to vote DumbpF because an angry blogger threatened to knock down one of our favorite icons of our sainted/sinner city. I really don't even think a single one of us actually favors renaming it. (Though we might jokingly enjoy the Pain Court references.)

So . . . Kumbaya, everybody. I love you all. This is a beautiful town. I want everyone to stay in it and stay peaceful. And I want to invite everyone who's never been here to come and visit, and maybe stay. (Missouri loves company.)

Peace everybody.
Enough said.

framer · PostJun 26, 2020#582020-06-26T06:31+00:00

ricke002 wrote: ↑
Jun 24, 2020
Just pointing out there's no reason to even bring up good deeds done by bad dudes, they're still bad.

Well sure, the dudes were bad, but the deeds were good; you said so yourself. So we can't even acknowledge the good deeds that were done?

(sorry to dredge this up again [bad pun intended]).

symphonicpoet · PostJun 26, 2020#592020-06-26T06:54+00:00

^I suppose it depends on why you're acknowledging those deeds. The timing feels fishy to me. It feels like it coincides with a significant local uptick in nastiness. I'm not sure exactly when the thing was built, but it feels 80s to me. And growing up here in the 70s/80s the 80s felt pretty bad in that regard. It's a pretty small rock. It's fairly out of the way, and not flashy and glorious. So take it or leave it, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference. I personally think if Lee hadn't done it someone else would have, and for unrelated reasons I don't feel he's an especially laudable guy.

But here's a little bit of history that is worth remembering. Especially since there's so much bad and one sided history floating about just at the moment:

kipfilet · PostJun 26, 2020#602020-06-26T14:19+00:00

Apparently there will be a minor skirmish tomorrow at 11am, as the Umar Lee-led movement will try to take down the statue and some people are gathering to "protect" it. Should be to fun to watch (from a distance).

dbInSouthCity · PostJun 26, 2020#612020-06-26T14:34+00:00

^ I think a group of white nationalist is planning a rally at the statue and Umar being Umar is doing some button pushing. The rally is lead by local idiot Jim Hoft of the gateway pundit

urbanitas · PostJun 26, 2020#622020-06-26T23:05+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jun 26, 2020
^I suppose it depends on why you're acknowledging those deeds. The timing feels fishy to me. It feels like it coincides with a significant local uptick in nastiness. I'm not sure exactly when the thing was built, but it feels 80s to me. And growing up here in the 70s/80s the 80s felt pretty bad in that regard. It's a pretty small rock. It's fairly out of the way, and not flashy and glorious. So take it or leave it, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference. I personally think if Lee hadn't done it someone else would have, and for unrelated reasons I don't feel he's an especially laudable guy.

I'm not sure what you are insinuating, but the rock in question was erected on May 17, 1977 ( according to the rock itself ).

I suspect you'd find most of the historical plaques, markers, memorials, etc. around town were installed around this time period. This was when the historic preservation / urban restoration boom began, along with an underlying newfound interest in the history of the nation, for many reasons really, but a big part of it was the Bicentennial.

Anyway, if that rock gets even one visitor to the riverfront to appreciate the self-defeating irony of young Lee's river engineering efforts, then I say it's worth it...

BellaVilla · PostJun 28, 2020#632020-06-28T21:22+00:00

What a colossal waste of energy.

Structural racism in public safety, incarceration, education and healthcare have an incredible amount of inertia to remain unchanged. Seeing the change that will actually make a difference is going to take years, maybe decades, of work and the movement is already being sidetracked by a statue of someone who has nothing to do with systemic American racism.

9ine Runner · PostJun 29, 2020#642020-06-29T05:13+00:00

St. Louis is in the conversation for most interesting city in the world, the ability to layer one thing on top of another.

I didn't have Art Hill becoming a quasi-holy-land but Catholics made a pilgrimage tonight.

symphonicpoet · PostJun 29, 2020#652020-06-29T05:46+00:00

Hey, they don't call this place Rome of the West for nothing. Or Zion of the Valley, for that matter. We are the new holy land. Or maybe the unholy land? Inhallowable land? (This has got to be something like flammable and inflammable, right?)

Next stop on the new nicknaming tour: Mecca of the Midwest.

framer · PostJun 29, 2020#662020-06-29T21:59+00:00

^Oh good lord; I recently "liked" a photo on Facebook of the Hagia Sofia (beautiful building, handsome photo), so I was treated to several hundred angry opinions on what the "real" name of that city is.

symphonicpoet · PostJun 30, 2020#672020-06-30T05:34+00:00

^Heh!

Now it's Loustanbul, not Leestantinople. I'll be in Loustanbul, not Leestantinople.
Why didn't we change it? I don't know. It's nobody's business but us jerks.

And hey, at least if we do go for all the name changes we'll have a church built on the right model for it. Just . . . let's skip the whole invasion part. There's enough cannonfire in this town already without any need to batter down city limits.

You know, at least on the south side River Des Peres would make a heck of a moat . . .

gary kreie · PostJun 30, 2020#682020-06-30T13:59+00:00

Should we rename the Louisiana Purchase, which was named after King Louis XIV? He passed the Code Noir which defined rules for slaves in French territories. I say we rename it Amazon Purchase. Also, if we rename St. Louis, do we also have to rename things with St. Louis in the name? St. Louis bread-sliced bagels becomes Pain Court bread-sliced bagels? Aren't the St. Louis Blues named after the song by W.C. Handy? Do we change the name chosen by the dead composer, or would the team become, say, the Arch City St. Louis Blues? And St. Louis style ribs might become Lion of the Valley ribs? St. Louis University turns into Mound City U?

bwcrow1s · PostJun 30, 2020#692020-06-30T21:09+00:00

It's all a slippery slope. Which monarchs didn't own slaves? We're running out of possible names.

urbanitas · PostJun 30, 2020#702020-06-30T22:38+00:00

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑
Jun 30, 2020
It's all a slippery slope. Which monarchs didn't own slaves? We're running out of possible names.

Which Presidents for that matter. And what President prior to Obama didn't do or say something that the Red Guards will find unacceptable, and therefore need to be eradicated from history?

How many famous historical figures would be acceptable once the Twitterverse is "informed" of their misdeeds: explorers, artists, writers, scientists, religious figures, politicians? Just about every statue, and every park, school, building, city, state, or country, named after a person, have to be changed.

Even Gandhi must come down. What chance does Saint Louis have compared to Gandhi? lol

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostJul 01, 2020#712020-07-01T15:30+00:00

urbanitas wrote: ↑
Jun 30, 2020
How many famous historical figures would be acceptable once the Twitterverse is "informed" of their misdeeds: explorers, artists, writers, scientists, religious figures, politicians? Just about every statue, and every park, school, building, city, state, or country, named after a person, have to be changed.

And? Does the fun at the park change? Education within the school building change? People moving to other cities/states/countries?

Did fewer people attend events after the change of the Kiel Center/Scottrade/Savis? Did the events within lose their appeal?

gone corporate · PostJul 01, 2020#722020-07-01T15:49+00:00

STLtoday.com: St. Louis Islamic foundation says removing King Louis IX statue 'will not erase the history'

TL/DR: They're not against either the statue or the name St. Louis.

kipfilet · PostJul 01, 2020#732020-07-01T16:21+00:00

gone corporate wrote: ↑
Jul 01, 2020
STLtoday.com: St. Louis Islamic foundation says removing King Louis IX statue 'will not erase the history'

TL/DR: They're not against either the statue or the name St. Louis.

Yes, this whole thing boils down to Umar Lee having an axe to grind (didn't he announce he was leaving St Louis some years ago?). He really seems to be the only person who has strong feelings about this (and, surprisingly, Ben Poremba as well - haven't figured yet on what side Michael Allen is in all of this).

pattimagee · PostJul 01, 2020#742020-07-01T17:52+00:00

You can hear some of their thoughts here *Umar and Michael Allen*

dbInSouthCity · PostJul 01, 2020#752020-07-01T18:03+00:00

As a Muslim, I take no offense to the statue or the name nor do I care if it stays or goes but the reasons people give as to why it should stay are 10 times dumber than the reason it should go.

Rename St. Louis

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