Exactly lol. Wasn’t the NPS the reason the biergarten/ice rink and Cathedral Square restaurant and plaza was nixed from the Arch Grounds rebuild?
They’re not exactly known for their leniency or reasonableness...
They’re not exactly known for their leniency or reasonableness...
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^ didn’t the arch grounds become a national park after the $380m construction
A National Park, yes. But I believe it was always a National Monument...which are also overseen by the NPS.
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Oh my, I just drove by this on Forest Park today. Man, the stucco thing. The rock grey rock easement better get trees with all the tax breaks they've gotten. The bump outs are good and of course have already been nailed by so many selfish/dumb drivers. This is not a good look from Forest Park as of today. I'm hoping it gets better.
So where exactly is this loading dock you're talking about and how does it connect? Cause from that photo, it looks to be about 10' plus away from the north side of the building.urbanitas wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2020
North side of the foundry complex, presumably not long after it opened.
CityFoundrySTL-OurStory
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I'm waiting to get permission to share some photographs and track diagrams (hopefully tomorrow), but it does appear that the spur continued across Spring to the Forest Park Brewery and adjacent industries immediately south of it at some point in the past. (And there were, of course, a great many other spurs serving a great many other nearby industries peeling off the main at numerous adjacent locations.)
It was actually a national memorial, and was designated that by Executive Order 7253 signed by President Franklin Roosevelt on December 21, 1935, which authorized the Secretary of the Interior to acquire and develop land for the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial. It was redesignated as a national park in 2018, and renamed Gateway Arch National Park. I don't believe it was ever technically designated as a national monument, and I know for sure it currently isn't designated as one (the NPS website has a list of national monuments, and the Gateway Arch isn't on that list). But yes, the entire park has always been overseen by the NPS, and it has been considered federal property since it was seized by the U.S. government in 1940.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2020A National Park, yes. But I believe it was always a National Monument...which are also overseen by the NPS.
^ LOL, national monument, memorial, whatever. Kind of splitting hairs at this point, don’t ya think? And it’s obviously not a national monument anymore...considering it’s been made into a National Park. The point was it’s always been overseen by the NPS.
Anyway, getting us back on topic here...I got a tour of this place yesterday and it’s...AWESOME. Seeing it in person really gives you a good feel for how the place will look and function, it’s also about 10 times bigger in person than it looks. This place is monstrous.
Also the theater building isn’t stucco lol, they’re currently installing the building’s insulation on the silver brackets you see and then a different colored skin will be placed over that.
GRG has occupied their offices on site as well, so hopefully they will have a bit of urgency to get the outside greenway connections done to the Foundry sooner rather than later.
Other than a couple members here, I think the vast majority of folks are going to love this place. The amount of work they’ve done and put into it is incredible. My only regret is not seeing the plant itself in operation when it was still a manufacturing center. Based on the equipment left in there, I bet it was something to see.
Anyway, getting us back on topic here...I got a tour of this place yesterday and it’s...AWESOME. Seeing it in person really gives you a good feel for how the place will look and function, it’s also about 10 times bigger in person than it looks. This place is monstrous.
Also the theater building isn’t stucco lol, they’re currently installing the building’s insulation on the silver brackets you see and then a different colored skin will be placed over that.
GRG has occupied their offices on site as well, so hopefully they will have a bit of urgency to get the outside greenway connections done to the Foundry sooner rather than later.
Other than a couple members here, I think the vast majority of folks are going to love this place. The amount of work they’ve done and put into it is incredible. My only regret is not seeing the plant itself in operation when it was still a manufacturing center. Based on the equipment left in there, I bet it was something to see.
Oh ya, I forgot to update that. I found a fire insurance aerial map of Midtown from the '50s that shows that the track split at Spring St. and straddled that warehouse across the street from the Foundry, which is currently used by the Fair St. Louis foundation.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jun 20, 2020I'm waiting to get permission to share some photographs and track diagrams (hopefully tomorrow), but it does appear that the spur continued across Spring to the Forest Park Brewery and adjacent industries immediately south of it at some point in the past. (And there were, of course, a great many other spurs serving a great many other nearby industries peeling off the main at numerous adjacent locations.)
It doesn't show where the tracks went from there, however, so show us what you got...
I also learned the proper term for those tracks. I called it a "spur", but the official term is apparently a rail "siding"... LSNED
The rail platform runs along the north side of the Foundry, from the east corner of the huge gabled roof overhang ( under which resides the Fassler Hall patio ), all the way to Spring St. It begins right where they recently installed that giant reclaimed metal coal bin or hopper, or whatever that is...stlnative wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2020So where exactly is this loading dock you're talking about and how does it connect? Cause from that photo, it looks to be about 10' plus away from the north side of the building.urbanitas wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2020
North side of the foundry complex, presumably not long after it opened.
CityFoundrySTL-OurStory
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Incidentally, that photo was taken long before they built the east addition to the Foundry in 1947, which extended the platform to Spring St.
I thought the Archdiocese shut that down before it even got before the NPS because it would have reduced or taken away their parking lot.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2020Exactly lol. Wasn’t the NPS the reason the biergarten/ice rink and Cathedral Square restaurant and plaza was nixed from the Arch Grounds rebuild?
They’re not exactly known for their leniency or reasonableness...
^ The plan I saw had the little square and the restaurant with an extended parking lot behind it. I tried to find a picture but I honestly don’t care enough about this to dig though all the old renderings.
The point was the NPS killed a lot of the cool ideas down there...as they did with some things here at the Foundry. Which is why I’m fairly amused at this pointless pissing match about the rail viaduct. The Lawrence Group rep who gave me my tour yesterday was pretty clear the NPS wasn’t going to allow them to attach an elevated path to the outside of that building, even though they wanted to.
The point was the NPS killed a lot of the cool ideas down there...as they did with some things here at the Foundry. Which is why I’m fairly amused at this pointless pissing match about the rail viaduct. The Lawrence Group rep who gave me my tour yesterday was pretty clear the NPS wasn’t going to allow them to attach an elevated path to the outside of that building, even though they wanted to.
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^Urbanitas,
This isn't the best scan in the history of mankind, but here's a track diagram out of our collection. (I am, among other things, the secretary of the Wabash Railroad Historical Society.) I expect we have better stuff in the archives, but this is what our editor in chief could dig up on short notice. (Our archives are presently split between Quincy IL, Monticello IL, and probably Kirksville MO, so getting stuff can be a bit of a challenge.) This plate shows the earlier bridge: 8-B. Portions of it appear to have been retained in the current structure: 8-C. (You can barely make out the ghost of the later bridge in this scan, which leads me to suspect it had been sketched on the original in pencil.)
![]()
And at the upper right corner you can barely make out that the spur splits into two tracks at Spring, as you are saying.
A later diagram makes the entire area more clear. It doesn't depict the crossing, but there still seems to be an inventory number for the thing. (Crossing No. 2S2W.) And it shows the current bridge in relation to the previous.
![]()
As to the nomenclature for railroad trackage in the United States, I've always used "spur" to refer to something with a dead end and "siding" to refer exclusively to two ended tracks. I suppose the most proper term is probably "lead" or colloquially "switch." (The Century Electric switch, say. Which could itself have several tracks. The Barretts switch has a bunch of 'em.) Don't really want to get too far off topic, and I'm just an amateur, but I've done my time sweating over the real thing on excursion train crews out on honest to god active mainlines, so I'm fairly comfortable with my own usage until someone with seniority corrects me.
Interestingly, our editor did point me to a couple of photographs of Century Electric and environs in earlier days, at least one of which I should really have known:
https://www.westernrailimages.com/Wabas ... -sd2JJdh/A
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=63701
This isn't the best scan in the history of mankind, but here's a track diagram out of our collection. (I am, among other things, the secretary of the Wabash Railroad Historical Society.) I expect we have better stuff in the archives, but this is what our editor in chief could dig up on short notice. (Our archives are presently split between Quincy IL, Monticello IL, and probably Kirksville MO, so getting stuff can be a bit of a challenge.) This plate shows the earlier bridge: 8-B. Portions of it appear to have been retained in the current structure: 8-C. (You can barely make out the ghost of the later bridge in this scan, which leads me to suspect it had been sketched on the original in pencil.)
And at the upper right corner you can barely make out that the spur splits into two tracks at Spring, as you are saying.
A later diagram makes the entire area more clear. It doesn't depict the crossing, but there still seems to be an inventory number for the thing. (Crossing No. 2S2W.) And it shows the current bridge in relation to the previous.
As to the nomenclature for railroad trackage in the United States, I've always used "spur" to refer to something with a dead end and "siding" to refer exclusively to two ended tracks. I suppose the most proper term is probably "lead" or colloquially "switch." (The Century Electric switch, say. Which could itself have several tracks. The Barretts switch has a bunch of 'em.) Don't really want to get too far off topic, and I'm just an amateur, but I've done my time sweating over the real thing on excursion train crews out on honest to god active mainlines, so I'm fairly comfortable with my own usage until someone with seniority corrects me.
Interestingly, our editor did point me to a couple of photographs of Century Electric and environs in earlier days, at least one of which I should really have known:
https://www.westernrailimages.com/Wabas ... -sd2JJdh/A
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=63701
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This?sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jun 20, 2020^ The plan I saw had the little square and the restaurant with an extended parking lot behind it. I tried to find a picture but I honestly don’t care enough about this to dig though all the old renderings.
The point was the NPS killed a lot of the cool ideas down there...as they did with some things here at the Foundry. Which is why I’m fairly amused at this pointless pissing match about the rail viaduct. The Lawrence Group rep who gave me my tour yesterday was pretty clear the NPS wasn’t going to allow them to attach an elevated path to the outside of that building, even though they wanted to.
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Seeing the label "Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis" really threw me for a sec. I was trying to make that Boyle and Cortex and . . . what the heck building is that and why is it labeled "cathedral basilica?" . . . wait . . . that ditch . . . Ah! The Old Cathedral. The one that's not actually a cathedral anymore. The Basilica of St. Louis which no one calls the Basilica of St. Louis. Gotcha.
Yes. That would have been a good idea. And honestly, that'd be a good location for a food hall. Maybe someone can do something creative with Tony's. (I really wish someone could do something creative with the Clarion.)
Yes. That would have been a good idea. And honestly, that'd be a good location for a food hall. Maybe someone can do something creative with Tony's. (I really wish someone could do something creative with the Clarion.)
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I'm guessing the Church wanted to keep that Walnut Street crossing for cars straight to the front door of the church. With a European style plaza, there is no clear way for cars to get to the parking lot from downtown. I wonder if the church would consider putting the parking underground someday with an elevator for the disabled that pops up on the side of the church near where that garage door goes into the church add-on on the East side.wabash wrote: ↑Jun 21, 2020Such an obviously good idea.
^ I'm not sure if it was the NPS or the Archdiocese, but I could definitely see the Archdiocese making a stink about losing the access from Walnut. Either way, I think a workaround could have been achieved and it wouldn't even have required going underground. They could have had a little one lane entrance that came in from Walnut and just ran it between Memorial Drive and the restaurant/market (would require shaving off a bit of that west edge of the building) and then using the southern entrance/exit they have depicted on that rendering as an exit only back to Memorial and up to Walnut.
Thank you. Great maps and photo links.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jun 21, 2020^Urbanitas,
This isn't the best scan in the history of mankind, but here's a track diagram out of our collection. (I am, among other things, the secretary of the Wabash Railroad Historical Society.) I expect we have better stuff in the archives, but this is what our editor in chief could dig up on short notice. (Our archives are presently split between Quincy IL, Monticello IL, and probably Kirksville MO, so getting stuff can be a bit of a challenge.) This plate shows the earlier bridge: 8-B. Portions of it appear to have been retained in the current structure: 8-C. (You can barely make out the ghost of the later bridge in this scan, which leads me to suspect it had been sketched on the original in pencil.)
And at the upper right corner you can barely make out that the spur splits into two tracks at Spring, as you are saying.
A later diagram makes the entire area more clear. It doesn't depict the crossing, but there still seems to be an inventory number for the thing. (Crossing No. 2S2W.) And it shows the current bridge in relation to the previous.
As to the nomenclature for railroad trackage in the United States, I've always used "spur" to refer to something with a dead end and "siding" to refer exclusively to two ended tracks. I suppose the most proper term is probably "lead" or colloquially "switch." (The Century Electric switch, say. Which could itself have several tracks. The Barretts switch has a bunch of 'em.) Don't really want to get too far off topic, and I'm just an amateur, but I've done my time sweating over the real thing on excursion train crews out on honest to god active mainlines, so I'm fairly comfortable with my own usage until someone with seniority corrects me.
Interestingly, our editor did point me to a couple of photographs of Century Electric and environs in earlier days, at least one of which I should really have known:
https://www.westernrailimages.com/Wabas ... -sd2JJdh/A
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=63701
I was also wondering where that trestle connected before the bridge over Vandeventer was built.
Those maps should be Exhibit A whenever anyone asks why all the I-64 interchanges between Vandeventer, Market St., and Compton are such a mess...
A real shame. A mural here combining aspects of City Foundry and St. Louis in general is needed here.
Good illustration that urban walkability is sooo much more than just plopping down a sidewalk.
Maybe lipstick is on its way
though.
Maybe lipstick is on its way
though.
^ Jesus. Even with a sick paint job that's not gonna be great. We can only hope a few years down the road something else can be done with that part of the project. Overall, it's obviously a net positive, but that wall is a bummer. Imagine instead of a wall it was open (or short rail at worst) with a plaza in the middle surrounded by small retail buildings. They could even keep the parking underneath!