This is actually an interesting hypothesis. I read about a couple of studies that linked reduced lead in gasoline to reduced crime rates nationally beginning in the 90s. Maybe environmental factors have more to do with crime in STL than we've considered.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2020lead paint
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Lead paint was all over public housing and it still is in some of the older stock. The city has a lead paint section in the building division that gets grants to go around the city and inspect for it and offer assistance in removing it https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... ection.cfmJacksonPolyp wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2020This is actually an interesting hypothesis. I read about a couple of studies that linked reduced lead in gasoline to reduced crime rates nationally beginning in the 90s. Maybe environmental factors have more to do with crime in STL than we've considered.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2020lead paint
PD story on the latest push to demo buildings and the lead dust bowls thats creating
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/met ... ab9b2.html
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"...redlining, job discrimination, failed war on drugs, lead paint."
but these things were/are ubiquitous across the US. why is the situation worse in St. Louis than virtually everywhere else in the developed world?
and while leaded fuel fumes seem a more obvious culprit as a driver of crime, lead paint in residences not so much. lead paint had been heavily used for at least a couple of centuries prior to the crime surge of the late 20th century. why would the effects not manifest until the 1970s?
but these things were/are ubiquitous across the US. why is the situation worse in St. Louis than virtually everywhere else in the developed world?
and while leaded fuel fumes seem a more obvious culprit as a driver of crime, lead paint in residences not so much. lead paint had been heavily used for at least a couple of centuries prior to the crime surge of the late 20th century. why would the effects not manifest until the 1970s?
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Maybe people should be required to document their exposure to lead paint prior to obtaining a firearm?
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Not sure what the developed world has anything to do with this, access to guns is nowhere near as easy as it is hereurban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2020"...redlining, job discrimination, failed war on drugs, lead paint."
but these things were/are ubiquitous across the US. why is the situation worse in St. Louis than virtually everywhere else in the developed world?
and while leaded fuel fumes seem a more obvious culprit as a driver of crime, lead paint in residences not so much. lead paint had been heavily used for at least a couple of centuries prior to the crime surge of the late 20th century. why would the effects not manifest until the 1970s?
and the situation is pretty much the same in every US city, its a bit worse here because of the nature of our region and segregation here is far worse then most places.
None of those things is a driver, they're all interlocked. lead= learning disabilities + redlining= stuck in a bad area + failed war on drugs = destroyed communities....all of this was cooking in the same pot for decades.
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"...the situation is pretty much the same in every US city, its a bit worse here because of the nature of our region and segregation here is far worse then most places."
not sure that's true but ok. and if we're being honest, it's more than a "bit" worse as compared to all but a handful of US cities.
sure lead can cause learning disabilities, but i assume the internalization of lead paint was the same in the 1800s as it was in the 1900s. so why the sudden explosion in crime? i'm sure it's a compound issue–a perfect storm of fumes, disinvestment, suburbanization, poverty, etc. i just wonder how much lead paint itself actually contributed/contributes.
not sure that's true but ok. and if we're being honest, it's more than a "bit" worse as compared to all but a handful of US cities.
sure lead can cause learning disabilities, but i assume the internalization of lead paint was the same in the 1800s as it was in the 1900s. so why the sudden explosion in crime? i'm sure it's a compound issue–a perfect storm of fumes, disinvestment, suburbanization, poverty, etc. i just wonder how much lead paint itself actually contributed/contributes.
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we are talking about poverty---and when factored with those other things mentioned it leads to desperate people doing desperate thingsurban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2020"...the situation is pretty much the same in every US city, its a bit worse here because of the nature of our region and segregation here is far worse then most places."
not sure that's true but ok. if we're being honest, it's more than a "bit" worse as compared to all but a handful of places.
sure lead can cause learning disabilities, but i assume the internalization of lead paint was the same in the 1800s as it was in the 1900s. so why the sudden explosion in crime? i'm sure it's a compound issue–a perfect storm of fumes, disinvestment, suburbanization, poverty, etc. i just wonder how much lead paint itself actually contributed/contributes.
but crime isnt all related to poverty, some of it is because it pays good. some dealers are moving 6 figures in drugs each month, they arent struggling.
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If I recall the story correctly the leaded gasoline was actually more of a problem than the paint, as inhalation is a more typical path to exposure, and exhaust fumes are easier to inhale than dust. And the exhaust fumes get into the soil, particularly in places with lots of leaded vehicle miles per unit area. Like us, say. Figuring out what the worst combination is would probably require understanding the soil chemistry and climate, since apparently the lead content of soil remains higher for decades, and that gets into the air when it gets dry and so on and so forth. Rain probably helps to wash it away, but infrequent heavy rains might produce quite different results than regular light rains, even if the amount of water is about the same. (As I expect any farmer would tell you.)
Add to that Missouri's uniquely easy access to guns, the high concentration of medium density impoverished neighborhoods with lots of streets and cars inside our modest city limits, and all the horrors of redlining, segregation, and systematic civic deinvestment and you get a remarkably nasty brew. That hurts a very specific set of people most without really threatening, say, newer and less leaded suburbs or the people that can afford to move to them. Add to this the fact that newer cars have virtually always gotten better gas mileage and burned cleaner and you probably even get less leftover lead in more well to do areas just based on better typical cars. Especially when you take into account the richer people switching to that more expensive unleaded gas quicker for their newer fancier cars. Remember when leaded was typically, eh, maybe a nickel or so cheaper? And who pays fifty cents more for a tank of gas? Yeah. Not me. For reasons. Thus is born a cycle of nasty. Or medically reinforced, really. (As it was already nigh on four hundred years old by that point.)
So, yeah, there are good reasons it would be worse here.
Note: this doesn't require "lead poisoning" levels. Even relatively low exposure at an early age apparently makes little niceties like impulse control and anger management more difficult. And of course, it's a delayed effect, as people really don't tend to have access to the really impressive impulse and anger amplifiers until they reach adulthood, more or less. even here. (And a lot of the worst impulse and anger issues maybe don't hit until puberty anyway. Thanks hormones!) So the it doesn't show up until, meh, twenty years after the exposure. (In, say, the seventies and eighties, twenty years after car culture really caught on.) And the effects persist for a good lifetime even after you clean the stuff up. (I suppose good social work and mental and emotional healthcare might help. If we had any that the people most affected could reach, that is.) It was also instructive that certain rural areas with higher lead exposures also showed higher violent crimes. (Missouri's own lead belt came up. Surprise surprise.)
I just hope clay exposure never turns into a problem.
Add to that Missouri's uniquely easy access to guns, the high concentration of medium density impoverished neighborhoods with lots of streets and cars inside our modest city limits, and all the horrors of redlining, segregation, and systematic civic deinvestment and you get a remarkably nasty brew. That hurts a very specific set of people most without really threatening, say, newer and less leaded suburbs or the people that can afford to move to them. Add to this the fact that newer cars have virtually always gotten better gas mileage and burned cleaner and you probably even get less leftover lead in more well to do areas just based on better typical cars. Especially when you take into account the richer people switching to that more expensive unleaded gas quicker for their newer fancier cars. Remember when leaded was typically, eh, maybe a nickel or so cheaper? And who pays fifty cents more for a tank of gas? Yeah. Not me. For reasons. Thus is born a cycle of nasty. Or medically reinforced, really. (As it was already nigh on four hundred years old by that point.)
So, yeah, there are good reasons it would be worse here.
Note: this doesn't require "lead poisoning" levels. Even relatively low exposure at an early age apparently makes little niceties like impulse control and anger management more difficult. And of course, it's a delayed effect, as people really don't tend to have access to the really impressive impulse and anger amplifiers until they reach adulthood, more or less. even here. (And a lot of the worst impulse and anger issues maybe don't hit until puberty anyway. Thanks hormones!) So the it doesn't show up until, meh, twenty years after the exposure. (In, say, the seventies and eighties, twenty years after car culture really caught on.) And the effects persist for a good lifetime even after you clean the stuff up. (I suppose good social work and mental and emotional healthcare might help. If we had any that the people most affected could reach, that is.) It was also instructive that certain rural areas with higher lead exposures also showed higher violent crimes. (Missouri's own lead belt came up. Surprise surprise.)
I just hope clay exposure never turns into a problem.
How many times more likely are you to be a victim of serious crime by owning a car in STL?
10x? 20x? 100x?
Between drive by shootings, highway shootings, botched robberies, grand theft auto, and car accidents, I feel simply safer in STL by not being associated with a lump of metal.
In fact the only times I’ve ever felt unsafe as a pedestrian in STL are because of cars...
10x? 20x? 100x?
Between drive by shootings, highway shootings, botched robberies, grand theft auto, and car accidents, I feel simply safer in STL by not being associated with a lump of metal.
In fact the only times I’ve ever felt unsafe as a pedestrian in STL are because of cars...
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I walk 50 miles, drive 120 and bike 100 miles a week. If I had to rank which I feel the most unsafe, it’s driving. Not because off chance of crime but other drivers with their head buried in the cell phone.addxb2 wrote: ↑Jan 08, 2020How many times more likely are you to be a victim of serious crime by owning a car in STL?
10x? 20x? 100x?
Between drive by shootings, highway shootings, botched robberies, grand theft auto, and car accidents, I feel simply safer in STL by not being associated with a lump of metal.
In fact the only times I’ve ever felt unsafe as a pedestrian in STL are because of cars...
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The Trouble with Crime Statistics
It’s hard to say what makes crime go up or down.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annal ... statistics
It’s hard to say what makes crime go up or down.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annal ... statistics
Lead exposure is also much higher than normal in the St. Louis area due to lead mining in Southeast Missouri. The ore produced in the lead belt was smelted in lead smelters, primarily in Herculaneum and Collinsville I believe but there were likely other smelters I am not familiar with.
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Tony Messenger, STL Post-Dispatch: Gardner alleges racist conspiracy in federal civil rights lawsuit against St. Louis, police union
Side note: I am not going to dare comment on what it's like to be the first black woman being the City's Prosecuting Attorney, as I don't have the context of being either a woman or black. I can say that I know there has been massive turnover in the Circuit Attorney's office from attorneys who have found it preferable to be employed somewhere else where she is not in charge. I do support alternative punishment programs, like drug courts, and the objective of not having our jails filled to capacity; I also am in favor of the Circuit Attorney's office actually prosecuting criminals. I note that she has received a lot of heat from her failed investigation & prosecution of disgraced ex-Gov. Eric Greitens; her former lead investigator is currently being prosecuted. And, while STL has a foul history with race relations, I'm generally not one to buy into people claiming vast "conspiracy" where everyone else is against her, in this case because of her blackness and/or her being a woman. I'm curious what her case will present as proof; these are serious charges that need serious proof. Being a prosecutor, she knows that she has a burden of proof threshold to cross; otherwise, this will just be more noise and spotlight.
Looks like the big progressive experiment in the City Courts is reaching a boiling point. This is going to get very ugly.On Monday, Circuit Attorney Kimberly M. Gardner filed a federal civil rights lawsuit alleging a racist conspiracy to stop her from doing her job. Gardner is suing the city of St. Louis; the St. Louis Police Officers Association and its longtime business manager Jeff Roorda; a former police officer named Charles Lane who sued Gardner's office; and Gerard Carmody and his children, who are the private attorneys appointed as special prosecutors to investigate her office's handling of the investigation of former Gov. Eric Greitens.
Side note: I am not going to dare comment on what it's like to be the first black woman being the City's Prosecuting Attorney, as I don't have the context of being either a woman or black. I can say that I know there has been massive turnover in the Circuit Attorney's office from attorneys who have found it preferable to be employed somewhere else where she is not in charge. I do support alternative punishment programs, like drug courts, and the objective of not having our jails filled to capacity; I also am in favor of the Circuit Attorney's office actually prosecuting criminals. I note that she has received a lot of heat from her failed investigation & prosecution of disgraced ex-Gov. Eric Greitens; her former lead investigator is currently being prosecuted. And, while STL has a foul history with race relations, I'm generally not one to buy into people claiming vast "conspiracy" where everyone else is against her, in this case because of her blackness and/or her being a woman. I'm curious what her case will present as proof; these are serious charges that need serious proof. Being a prosecutor, she knows that she has a burden of proof threshold to cross; otherwise, this will just be more noise and spotlight.
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Honestly I’ve never heard anything nice about her almost sounds like she’s brought a lot of this on herself but I’m willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Everything just needs to be clean slated. #refresh
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You are correct that she did bring this on herself by going after criminals within the police dept, it’s bled the SLPOA dry because they’re spending boat load of money on defense lawyers. But can anyone blame her for going away corrupt officers? As far as her other strategies like drug courts, diversion programs- idk if it works or doesn’t but status quo of the last 20-30 years doesn’t have a good track record either.Wolfpaw wrote: ↑Jan 13, 2020Honestly I’ve never heard anything nice about her almost sounds like she’s brought a lot of this on herself but I’m willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Everything just needs to be clean slated. #refresh
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I support Gardner in this effort. I don't think it shows that she's paranoid or conspiracy mongering - it's just a legal strategy, and one that seems novel and untried at that: use conspiracy to deprive/commit statutes to go after entrenched institutional racism. Probably won't work, but then again no tried and true legal strategy exists for doing so. The sheer amount of animus directed towards her by Roorda is, in my book, reason to support her. Anybody that guy despises is likely a person of character.
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^I was about to point out that you don't have to look too far. Roorda and the POA don't really hide their agenda much. Does it amount to a criminal conspiracy? I don't know. But from my perspective it sure looks nasty and deeply corrupt. I've personally heard officers talking nasty about Gardner. No interest in getting anyone fired, as I figure they have a right to an opinion just about like the rest of us. It's maybe bad form, but I'm kind of kettle-like in that regard myself: not really squeaky clean. I have talked the trash about my big bosses in company drag once or twice. It . . . uh . . . happens when you're tired late at night. That said, I think it makes it clear that there's some friction there. Real friction. Maybe she's brought it on herself, but I can think of worse hills to die on than trying to fix race relations in our fair Lou.
But yeah, it's gonna get ugly. Whatever happens, I hope the ugly leaves us all a little cleaner and wiser.
But yeah, it's gonna get ugly. Whatever happens, I hope the ugly leaves us all a little cleaner and wiser.
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The whole thing starts and ends with SLPOA getting all hot and bothered that Gardner is going after police officers but when they're doing coke and murdering one another at 1:00am while on shift or pleading guilty for beating up their own undercover, or posting vile racist sh*t on social media (reason why she isnt accepting cases from 20 or so officers because if theyre called to the stand in a trail their credibility would lose the case), can ya really blame her? what is she suppose to do?
Nobody is "anti-police" and its not "anti-police" to go after corrupt police officers but SLPOA will keep beating that drum
Nobody is "anti-police" and its not "anti-police" to go after corrupt police officers but SLPOA will keep beating that drum
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The SLPOA is literally just all the characters from the movie the Deer Hunter.
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Two stories on Circuit Attorney Gardner in the news today...
1. KMOV has a story about CA Gardner and a traffic stop. Last December, STLPD pulled over a car on Market, driving at night with no lights on. The driver was CA Gardner. She was given a warning. Afterwards, she went on the radio and said she was pulled over for an unreasonable 15 minutes by police looking to intimidate her. The police officer who pulled her over stated that he didn't know it was her he pulled over; also, that some attorney from her office arrived on the scene and attempted to intimidate him for pulling over the CA. KMOV's reporting includes discovery of a video of the traffic stop --- it only lasted 6 minutes. She inflated the length of the traffic stop by 150%. This video is a huge blow to her credibility.
2. STL Biz Journal reports another prosecutor has resigned from the CA's office. This one' has 4 years tenure as a prosecutor (he also comes from a family of prominent STL attorneys with some real pull). The Biz Journal reports that more than 75 City prosecutors have resigned from the Circuit Attorney's office since Gardner assumed her office three years ago. She's also about to lose her 4th Chief Trial Assistant in her tenure.
1. KMOV has a story about CA Gardner and a traffic stop. Last December, STLPD pulled over a car on Market, driving at night with no lights on. The driver was CA Gardner. She was given a warning. Afterwards, she went on the radio and said she was pulled over for an unreasonable 15 minutes by police looking to intimidate her. The police officer who pulled her over stated that he didn't know it was her he pulled over; also, that some attorney from her office arrived on the scene and attempted to intimidate him for pulling over the CA. KMOV's reporting includes discovery of a video of the traffic stop --- it only lasted 6 minutes. She inflated the length of the traffic stop by 150%. This video is a huge blow to her credibility.
2. STL Biz Journal reports another prosecutor has resigned from the CA's office. This one' has 4 years tenure as a prosecutor (he also comes from a family of prominent STL attorneys with some real pull). The Biz Journal reports that more than 75 City prosecutors have resigned from the Circuit Attorney's office since Gardner assumed her office three years ago. She's also about to lose her 4th Chief Trial Assistant in her tenure.
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you know its getting into full stupid silly season when people care about a 15 or 6 min stop.gone corporate wrote: ↑Jan 22, 2020Two stories on Circuit Attorney Gardner in the news today...
1. KMOV has a story about CA Gardner and a traffic stop. Last December, STLPD pulled over a car on Market, driving at night with no lights on. The driver was CA Gardner. She was given a warning. Afterwards, she went on the radio and said she was pulled over for an unreasonable 15 minutes by police looking to intimidate her. The police officer who pulled her over stated that he didn't know it was her he pulled over; also, that some attorney from her office arrived on the scene and attempted to intimidate him for pulling over the CA. KMOV's reporting includes discovery of a video of the traffic stop --- it only lasted 6 minutes. She inflated the length of the traffic stop by 150%. This video is a huge blow to her credibility.
2. STL Biz Journal reports another prosecutor has resigned from the CA's office. This one' has 4 years tenure as a prosecutor (he also comes from a family of prominent STL attorneys with some real pull). The Biz Journal reports that more than 75 City prosecutors have resigned from the Circuit Attorney's office since Gardner assumed her office three years ago. She's also about to lose her 4th Chief Trial Assistant in her tenure.
#2. well sh*t, he was my POC in a case that im a witness to and the trial is Feb 10th.
I just don't see how anyone can defend Gardner. She's been a flat-out disaster. Wesley Bell ran on a similar platform of criminal justice reform, and he seems to be doing fine.
Why anyone would want to work in LE in the city or county is beyond me.
Catch and release.
One day in the near future the city is going to wake up and not a police offer to be found.
Catch and release.
One day in the near future the city is going to wake up and not a police offer to be found.
How many of those positions have been filled?gone corporate wrote: ↑Jan 22, 20202. STL Biz Journal reports another prosecutor has resigned from the CA's office. This one' has 4 years tenure as a prosecutor (he also comes from a family of prominent STL attorneys with some real pull). The Biz Journal reports that more than 75 City prosecutors have resigned from the Circuit Attorney's office since Gardner assumed her office three years ago. She's also about to lose her 4th Chief Trial Assistant in her tenure.
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