imran wrote:
Was in Dallas over the weekend. South of downtown they have created a 'farmer's market' by re-purposing a shed. Next to it is an air-conditioned industrial shed with many hip shops/restaurants. On the surface it was nice but when I look back it was all very much geared towards the hip urban shopper. I lost interest pretty quickly. The foundry is at risk of the same one-dimensional appeal - our industrial-chic food hall.
I don't think this is really comparable to the Foundry. The Foundry will be a way more dynamic and interesting place than this. Hell Soulard Market is more interesting.
imran wrote:
Was in Dallas over the weekend. South of downtown they have created a 'farmer's market' by re-purposing a shed. Next to it is an air-conditioned industrial shed with many hip shops/restaurants. On the surface it was nice but when I look back it was all very much geared towards the hip urban shopper. I lost interest pretty quickly. The foundry is at risk of the same one-dimensional appeal - our industrial-chic food hall.
I don't think this is really comparable to the Foundry. The Foundry will be a way more dynamic and interesting place than this. Hell Soulard Market is more interesting.
Thanks, Imran. I have to agree that the food hall looks a lot like the Foundry Food Hall renderings, although I think smaller. If... If.... we get the retail that's supposed to be part of this, I think it does have the potential to be more like a successful Ponce City Market in ATL, but we need a lot of progress still on office, etc... residential already is out.
So far we've got all food/drink/entertainment and a couple relocations from elsewhere in the Central Corridor... basically all substitution effect stuff. I hope they can deliver on their promise.
^ My sincere apologizes. I was under the impression that this was a public forum we are all allowed to participate in.
Moving on...
I'm actually really excited for this. Something new and different in a city that doesn't have much of that. I think this could be a pretty transformational development for Midtown, especially if they can get Phase II off the ground, a significant amount of office space would really help take it to the next level. Kinda surprised at all the hate considering this used to be a run down abandoned brake factory lol...but this is St. Louis after all...I guess I shouldn't really be that surprised.
I suppose from those of us who have been around the block a few times we can see parallels to other supposedly transformational projects with a heavy reliance on retail of one kind or another. Union Station, for instance, was supposed to be largely one-off boutique stores originally, but it ended up becoming just one more mall. St. Louis Center was supposed to be a flagship-mall catering to a built-in convention crowd. This . . . kind of looks like a mall. Hip and trendy, to be sure, but I assure you, both of the above opened hip and trendy in the 80s only to flounder and require significant public investment to salvage. (In fact, neither is fully half salvaged yet.) All that said, I'm glad those projects happened, as they kept some really significant buildings going long enough to be whole by the time the next thing came along. And Foundry could well do the same. But . . . it's an old foundry, not Railway Exchange or Union Station. I'm glad to see it happen. I'm hoping for stunning success. I'm personally excited about it. But I can understand some skepticism.
All that said, it's a good location. It's dynamic. I'm hoping the med, tech, and ed in midtown have better legs than the banking, corporate services, and communications downtown in the 80s. My fingers are entirely crossed.
^ also the issue is they have so far to go to get to the Ponce City Market vision announced over three years ago now.... no retail announcements, just three office tenants, residential has been totally eliminated, no grocery store for the Byco Building, etc. I hope it succeeds but it doesn't seem to be securing the level of strong tenant interest that inspires great confidence. (I'm also reminded the development partner owner isn't even relocating Bull Moose to Grand Center adjacent announced as part of the hotel redevelopment.)
More food/beverage/event space/cinema is not what Midtown or the city needs; it already has plenty of that. Crossing fingers.
^ Though, dumped, because they couldn't get historic tax credits on a NEW building. Big surprise there. Sounded like a nice ploy to get the subsidies approved, then moved on. Please inform me otherwise.
I would assume that as long as their is empty spots within the footprint to develop, especially along Vande, that Lawrence Group will keep all options on the table whether it office as currently rendered, return to residential and who knows maybe they get on the hotel band wagon.
I wouldn't be surprised a bit at a hotel rendering popped up for the Foundry at this point. Maybe we can call it CWE/Cortex vs Chouteau/Midtown vs downtown hotel rival cage match on who will get the next round of rooms built before the financing dries up or next downturn. But still hoping that Foundry is able to sign tenants and break ground on office space first and foremost.
I agree with a lot of the above opinions about this development. I'm really excited about it, but with a healthy amount of scepticism. The connectivity this has with nearby developments - via the greenway or otherwise - as well as potential future office and residential, will be key. That Dallas market appears to have a ton of multifamily housing within very close proximity. I feel like this will need more people living or working within brief walking distance to make it work long term.
At the Cortex Venture Cafe event from a few weeks ago, Steve Smith said that residential had to be scrapped due to historic tax credits not being awarded if a residential tower was done. But he didn't say whether or not they would look at the possibility of putting residential on one of the two office building lots along Vandeventer. He hinted at it while at the same time backing down from it.
^^ While I have hopes for a bigger Phase II office plan for the Foundry, the good news is that Cortex, right next door, has created nearly 6,000 jobs in the last several years with plans for more than twice that over the next decade or so. BJC/WU employ nearly 30,000 in the Central West End just opposite Cortex, SLU employs thousands more in their main campus to the north of this development and their growing medical campus to the south. These counts don't even include students in the area. The Armory office project just opposite the freeway is opening in less than a year with ambitious expansion plans. Iron Hill, Steelcote and other redevelopments continue to be announced and move forward. Residential units have been popping up all over this area recently and according to recent population estimates while overall some bad news for the city because of continued losses in the North, the Downtown, Midtown and CWE areas continue to grow in population. And once the little elevated walkway from this development is tied in with the completed section of greenway between Boyle and Sarah that puts it in easy distance of the light rail which makes it more accessible from more distant parts of the city.
Fortunately much of what you mention here is happening. The key is to keep it going.
I honestly don’t think this development needs residential to survive cause you have so much proposed and planned in the nearby vicinity’s however adding some residential to this component would make the appeal factor all that more merrier.
A 200+ unit residential mid rise could do wonders.
chriss752 wrote:
At the Cortex Venture Cafe event from a few weeks ago, Steve Smith said that residential had to be scrapped due to historic tax credits not being awarded if a residential tower was done. But he didn't say whether or not they would look at the possibility of putting residential on one of the two office building lots along Vandeventer. He hinted at it while at the same time backing down from it.
Which is what we've known for a long time now. Which is totally bogus. They thought they were going to get MO State Historic Tax Credits on a new residential building? Just because it is on a 'historic' site? That's real wobbly logic for me. Again, feels like they threw that on there to get aldermanic support, scoop subsidies, then tuck tail on residential.
There's just no one willing to take on any risk. ***** frustrating. Hey, maybe their motives are really authentic though, and they'll build a real urban form development that will serve the surrounding area.
Keep in mind that it's not your typical lease situation there... it's per bed and looking at their website they appear to be leasing based on the SLU calendar. Almost every unit you select has an August start date and either May or July end date. It's an apples to oranges situation as they don't care if it's full in June - as long as it's full come August.
bwcrow1s wrote:
Which is what we've known for a long time now. Which is totally bogus. They thought they were going to get MO State Historic Tax Credits on a new residential building? Just because it is on a 'historic' site? That's real wobbly logic for me.
No, HTCs would never be awarded for new construction, and that's not what they ever expected. The issue is that NPS said that any new construction within the historic district needs to comply with the Secretary of the Interior Standards if it is included in a project that is using HTCs for renovating contributing structures. That's why they ended up going with the new construction that is relatively similar in design to what was there. The new construction is TIF eligible, but not HTC. The 2nd phase does not have this restriction, thus they can build towers if they want to assuming they can finance it.
TLDR, Basically they note on what types of stores are and will continue to succeed even among the digital disruption. Including Digital-Native Vertical Brands, non-boring retail specifically Allbirds, Warby Parkers and Caspers and fewer Gymborees, Gaps and J.Crews... Just thought it was interesting to see some parallels between what I saw at Ponce Market and what I expect and hope we'll see from Foundry's retail.
