Empty nesters moving downtown too...
"Strong demand for downtown living fuels growth"
http://fox4kc.com/2017/08/04/strong-dem ... ls-growth/
"Strong demand for downtown living fuels growth"
http://fox4kc.com/2017/08/04/strong-dem ... ls-growth/
May not break ground until next year according to this but others think it may happen when crane for Two Light isn't needed anymore.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html
And also...
30K-35K is considered by urban planners as the critical mass point needed for a highly functioning downtown. That is, starts to draw broader range of retailers and also not dependent on events to sustain street life.“Since the One Light groundbreaking, the downtown population has grown from 21,000 to 26,000, and we are rapidly on our way to 33,000 by the end of 2019.
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What does Kansas City encompass as 'downtown' out of curiosity?earthling wrote:May not break ground until next year according to this but others think it may happen when crane for Two Light isn't needed anymore.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html
And also...30K-35K is considered by urban planners as the critical mass point needed for a highly functioning downtown. That is, starts to draw broader range of retailers and also not dependent on events to sustain street life.“Since the One Light groundbreaking, the downtown population has grown from 21,000 to 26,000, and we are rapidly on our way to 33,000 by the end of 2019.
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^Greater Downtown is from River to 31st, State Line to about Hwy71. Central Downtown is generally considered River Market, CBD and Xroads (about 23rd St). Most of the population increase has been Central Downtown and up Gilham to 31st but there have a been a few projects on E/W sides of Greater Downtown.
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Ohh. So this would be equivalent from the Arch to the CWE pretty much? I was thinking there were 33,000 people purely in the alphabet loop and I was like ?? Where would they all go???earthling wrote:^Greater Downtown is from River to 31st, State Line to about Hwy71. Central Downtown is generally considered River Market, CBD and Xroads. Most of the population increase has been River Market to Xroads and up Gilham to 31st but there have a been a few projects on E/W sides of Greater Downtown.
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About equivalent to STL's N Grand maybe. Though the bulk of growth is downtown core to about KC's 25th Street and a stretch along Gilham.
This shows STL's 'Greater Downtown' definition, which is about 19K population now...
This shows STL's 'Greater Downtown' definition, which is about 19K population now...
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Downtown Kansas City, per the definition above, is right about seven square miles. To get an equivalent area in St. Louis you have to carry the DowntownSTL maps greater downtown area out Cass to Sarah and Park to Ewing. So . . . essentially including all of Midtown (Grand Center inclusive) out to the very edge of the West End. (And fair chunks of every neighborhood immediately north or south of downtown, for that matter.)
Just to carry this along I've done a little back of the napkin math. To the Greater Downtown I've assigned Downtown, Downtown West, Carr Square, Columbus Square, half of Laffayette Square, and Peadbody/Darst-Webbe, and two thirds of Lasalle Park. (The part outside the area being the skinny end of the triangle in this case.) Per the 2010 census that area had a population of slightly more than fifteen thousand. Okay. That makes sense. It feels superficially consistent with their estimates. If I add in the population growth they show for the core area over the period I end up with a final population of just under eighteen thousand. Which is . . . close.
To this we add Midtown, Grand Center, half of Tiffany and the Gate District, perhaps a quarter of Botanical Heights, and maybe a third of Jeff VanderLou. This is all very rough, but the area is actually still a couple percent smaller than I'd estimate the KC area to be. In 2010 the area I'm calling roughly equivalent to greater downtown KC had about twenty nine thousand people, more or less.
The original comparison, using arbitrary study definitions that have no relationship to one another, is kind of apples to oranges. This is really really rough, but it does lead me to believe that if you drew a box of the same size you'd at least have similar numbers and maybe slightly greater here. (Which makes sense. Population density is generally somewhat lower there. In the urban core it's probably pretty stinking close now, but maybe still not quite identical.)
If you want to see the area I'm including you can see the map I sketched out here:
The population numbers are all just cribbed from Wiki, but that seems to match the City Hall numbers, and all they have is 2010 anyway.
They looked like this:
Nbr pop factor result
35 3721 1 3721
36 3940 1 3940
32 2078 .5 1039
33 2378 .5 1189
34 1299 .67 870
61 2774 1 2774
62 1869 1 1869
28 1037 .25 259
29 1060 .5 530
31 3456 .5 1728
37 5652 1 5652
59 5557 .33 1834
77 3562 1 3562
The neighborhood numbers are from the official map. The top block is the "Greater Downtown" of the study, more or less. The bottom block adds in enough area to make it match the KC study area, more or less.
Just to carry this along I've done a little back of the napkin math. To the Greater Downtown I've assigned Downtown, Downtown West, Carr Square, Columbus Square, half of Laffayette Square, and Peadbody/Darst-Webbe, and two thirds of Lasalle Park. (The part outside the area being the skinny end of the triangle in this case.) Per the 2010 census that area had a population of slightly more than fifteen thousand. Okay. That makes sense. It feels superficially consistent with their estimates. If I add in the population growth they show for the core area over the period I end up with a final population of just under eighteen thousand. Which is . . . close.
To this we add Midtown, Grand Center, half of Tiffany and the Gate District, perhaps a quarter of Botanical Heights, and maybe a third of Jeff VanderLou. This is all very rough, but the area is actually still a couple percent smaller than I'd estimate the KC area to be. In 2010 the area I'm calling roughly equivalent to greater downtown KC had about twenty nine thousand people, more or less.
The original comparison, using arbitrary study definitions that have no relationship to one another, is kind of apples to oranges. This is really really rough, but it does lead me to believe that if you drew a box of the same size you'd at least have similar numbers and maybe slightly greater here. (Which makes sense. Population density is generally somewhat lower there. In the urban core it's probably pretty stinking close now, but maybe still not quite identical.)
If you want to see the area I'm including you can see the map I sketched out here:
The population numbers are all just cribbed from Wiki, but that seems to match the City Hall numbers, and all they have is 2010 anyway.
They looked like this:
Nbr pop factor result
35 3721 1 3721
36 3940 1 3940
32 2078 .5 1039
33 2378 .5 1189
34 1299 .67 870
61 2774 1 2774
62 1869 1 1869
28 1037 .25 259
29 1060 .5 530
31 3456 .5 1728
37 5652 1 5652
59 5557 .33 1834
77 3562 1 3562
The neighborhood numbers are from the official map. The top block is the "Greater Downtown" of the study, more or less. The bottom block adds in enough area to make it match the KC study area, more or less.
In terms of recently (2016) completed and announced units, about 85% of units are in KC's downtown core (River Market, CBD Loop, Central Xroads), about 5000 of nearly 5900 units. Am not including Crown Center/Gilham projects. So about 7000 more pops in core if say 1.4 people avg/unit, 8000 if 1.6. And many units have been completed between 2010-2015.
This shows realistic approved/completed projects, excluding some distant proposals like Four/Five Light...
http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20343
Would expect central Xroads along streetcar line to really take off next 5 years, still many open surface lots prime for development.
This shows realistic approved/completed projects, excluding some distant proposals like Four/Five Light...
http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20343
Would expect central Xroads along streetcar line to really take off next 5 years, still many open surface lots prime for development.
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It is no secret to any of us that central KC is much more healthy than STL. However, STL does face a lot more complex issues than KC ever has or will. Given those setbacks, I think STL is doing quite well. Also of note, STL city's "urban fabric" is much more extensive than that in KC. We also have Clayton, Maplewood, UCITY, and many other areas that KC would have annexed but STL can't. Also, can a moderator change the name of this thread? "Kansas City Happenings" is a better title.framer wrote:My downtown can beat up your downtown.
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Lets be realistic KC never had to deal with the fallout like St.Louis had and has, theres a reason why St.Louis was much more prosperous at the time. Alls I'm saying is KC has never had to face the obstacles that St.Louis has too and still fight through all the negative image and hatred from people in general. St.Louis carries majority of the states AA population and nearly half of Missouri's economy and with all the fallout St.Louis still manages to still have more fortunate 500 companies within its region its not a knock on KC yes KC is having a great deal of success a renaissance and kudos to them however lets be for real as much as we bash how far St.Louis has fallen its slowly rising and theres a lot of things that are happening here in positives Downtown KC was never like Downtown St.Louis and thats the truth Downtown St.Louis was left for dead. KC doesn't have a North Side. Anyways both cities are completely different and are on different paths to success. I just can't stand when folks in KC and on their forums always say St.Louis tries to act like its a eastern city a city can never act like anything its how St.Louis was influenced and still today i'll take St.Louis and all its ugliness any day than Pittsburgh Detroit, Chicablow Memphis Dallas Kansas City Cincinnati Milwaukee Nashville Louisville Cleveland
again kudos to KC and yes I'm a fan of KC and a toast to their success keep it going.
Lets remember St.Louis isn't far behind.
again kudos to KC and yes I'm a fan of KC and a toast to their success keep it going.
Lets remember St.Louis isn't far behind.
Wouldn't you base the number on people per square mile rather than an arbitrary definition of "downtown" which can vary greatly from city to city? South City and the CWE are dense (by Midwest standards anyway) and are fairly active - I think the census had a tract in the CWE that was densest in the state in 2010earthling wrote: ↑Aug 05, 2017May not break ground until next year according to this but others think it may happen when crane for Two Light isn't needed anymore.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html
And also...30K-35K is considered by urban planners as the critical mass point needed for a highly functioning downtown. That is, starts to draw broader range of retailers and also not dependent on events to sustain street life.“Since the One Light groundbreaking, the downtown population has grown from 21,000 to 26,000, and we are rapidly on our way to 33,000 by the end of 2019.
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My apologies. I am genuinely thrilled to see construction in Kansas City, to see success. I also hope we don't make false comparisons, and learn from those that are true. This shouldn't be a popularity contest. KC is really quite a cool place, and Power and Light is bone-fide cool.
Yeah, and KC's 'Greater Downtown' definition is pretty large. But over 85% of development is occurring within about 5 blocks of the streetcar line (downtown core, about 2 or so sq miles) - bikeshare extends access to the outer developments. It's approaching the critical mass point for a highly functioning downtown, should be realized within a couple more years. That is, highly functional w/out relying on events.
There's a benefit to having a short starter street car line as it compresses more development in that smallish area. It's more like a horizontal elevator connecting downtown districts rather than a commuter line. And because it's free to ride and directly within the street activity, it seamlessly ties together key areas as various downtown 'floors' for those who live within it. It's not about how long it is, it's about how you use it.
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Probably next summer/early fall (a few months after Two Light opens next June) per this article
Two Light going up — and leasing up — fast
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html
This is a pretty good overview of the state of downtown KC residential, btw.
Speaking of rails, I do think our Downtown/Midtown would be significantly further along if we had the STL Streetcar. (Might have pulled some momentum from CWE but that's not where we need redevelopment focus imo.) KC Streetcar's impact probably can be overstated, but I don't think there's any question it's been a big help for their downtown boon.
earthling,
do you know if the Mark Twain Building project has gotten underway? Last I saw the developer said they hoped to start in April... but It's by the same folks (Hudson Holdings) that just bought the Railway Exchange here and that a ton of announced projects in various cities across the country but few seemingly actually underway. Hopefully they are capable but I have doubts.
do you know if the Mark Twain Building project has gotten underway? Last I saw the developer said they hoped to start in April... but It's by the same folks (Hudson Holdings) that just bought the Railway Exchange here and that a ton of announced projects in various cities across the country but few seemingly actually underway. Hopefully they are capable but I have doubts.
I saw some scaffolding around it early this year for apparently some external repairs but nothing new about the apt conversion since December...STLrainbow wrote: ↑Aug 08, 2017earthling,
do you know if the Mark Twain Building project has gotten underway? Last I saw the developer said they hoped to start in April... but It's by the same folks (Hudson Holdings) that just bought the Railway Exchange here and that a ton of announced projects in various cities across the country but few seemingly actually underway. Hopefully they are capable but I have doubts.
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 52323.html
Sounds like Hudson is slow moving with projects across country.
Will be interesting to see if downtown KC can continue to build new luxury units at a large scale. They are going well over $2/sqft now, some up to $2.30.
KC has their airport vote coming up Tuesday. I am really curious to see what happens with it. I refuse to connect through their airport because I have heard how bad it is.
The latest numbers I have seen are that is passes (somewhere in the 52 to 55% yes range) but it has been a really hot topic there the last couple years. I think it will pass at this point and maybe easily, but if it doesn't I am curious to see what the airlines do there.
The latest numbers I have seen are that is passes (somewhere in the 52 to 55% yes range) but it has been a really hot topic there the last couple years. I think it will pass at this point and maybe easily, but if it doesn't I am curious to see what the airlines do there.
^looks like it will pass and isn't going to be very close
I go to school in KC area and I've made some observations/ comparisons to STL in the past months.
1 SIZE. KC is a big town. I've never been somewhere where the urban fabric just "runs out."
--(Blue Springs to KC core is 19 miles; Wentville to STL is 42).
2. Neighborhoods. Aside the central spine (Downtown, Westport, and Plaza) neighborhoods in KC lack density, placemaking, and structure. I'd compare a lot of them to the density and architectural style of Kirkwood/ Webster Groves. Wider lots--less brick.
3. Vibrancy. Late night options are few and far in between. Coffee joints, eateries, and entertainment venues close at 9/10. (Nothing like Coffee Cartel, Mokabe's, City Diner, Peacock, Courtesy, Uncle Bill's, Blueberry Hill, Flamingo...the list goes on). St. Louis has a lot more 24/7 options whereas KC goes to sleep at night.
4. Nightlife. Bar scene is concentrated in Westport. The bars are upscale and the restaurants are nice, but the neighborhood doesn't really function as a residential area. It's more just a district; drive-to hotspot.
5. Ego. KC people think very, very highly of themselves. When I tell people I want to live in Downtown Stl, they scowl. One said, "Architecture? Are you sure a place as poor as St. Louis has the market to support your profession?" Another asked me why I liked STL so much and insisted "we" should drop an atomic bomb there.
6. Downtown. Dwntwn KC is secretly beautiful. I'm envious of P&L. Lots of activated storefronts. Yet I see less people here than in Downtown STL. They have a CVS!! (Argh).
7 KCI airport is a joke (That's all).
8 PUBLIC TRANSIT. Pt isnt quite there. The streetcar is cute and the bus stops slap STL's in the face, but I have yet to see an actual bus. (And I thought STL was auto-oriented).
1 SIZE. KC is a big town. I've never been somewhere where the urban fabric just "runs out."
--(Blue Springs to KC core is 19 miles; Wentville to STL is 42).
2. Neighborhoods. Aside the central spine (Downtown, Westport, and Plaza) neighborhoods in KC lack density, placemaking, and structure. I'd compare a lot of them to the density and architectural style of Kirkwood/ Webster Groves. Wider lots--less brick.
3. Vibrancy. Late night options are few and far in between. Coffee joints, eateries, and entertainment venues close at 9/10. (Nothing like Coffee Cartel, Mokabe's, City Diner, Peacock, Courtesy, Uncle Bill's, Blueberry Hill, Flamingo...the list goes on). St. Louis has a lot more 24/7 options whereas KC goes to sleep at night.
4. Nightlife. Bar scene is concentrated in Westport. The bars are upscale and the restaurants are nice, but the neighborhood doesn't really function as a residential area. It's more just a district; drive-to hotspot.
5. Ego. KC people think very, very highly of themselves. When I tell people I want to live in Downtown Stl, they scowl. One said, "Architecture? Are you sure a place as poor as St. Louis has the market to support your profession?" Another asked me why I liked STL so much and insisted "we" should drop an atomic bomb there.
6. Downtown. Dwntwn KC is secretly beautiful. I'm envious of P&L. Lots of activated storefronts. Yet I see less people here than in Downtown STL. They have a CVS!! (Argh).
7 KCI airport is a joke (That's all).
8 PUBLIC TRANSIT. Pt isnt quite there. The streetcar is cute and the bus stops slap STL's in the face, but I have yet to see an actual bus. (And I thought STL was auto-oriented).
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Can attest to most of those observations, having gone to school near KC as well (Warrensburg). This thread isn't here to sh*t on KC though, so that's about all I'll say.
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Lets be realistic when do the good folks of KC ever congratulate STL? few far in between to almost never in fact they do so much STL bashing that its become pathetic..
Their KCrag forum does more bashing STL than anything I've ever seen.
While this forum we genuinely try to be civil and respectful of KC on the other side they genuinely hate STL with a passion.
I'll go on to say that KC is so full of itself that its laughable.
That city contains the most snooty arrogant people I've ever come across I'm not sure which city is worse Memphis or KC.
I'll pick KC because they're a thorn in STL side.
Yeah good job KC for bashing STL even though your intentions were to thank STL so condescendingly.
Its not that i dislike KC its i dislike how the folks there treat STL.
Their KCrag forum does more bashing STL than anything I've ever seen.
While this forum we genuinely try to be civil and respectful of KC on the other side they genuinely hate STL with a passion.
I'll go on to say that KC is so full of itself that its laughable.
That city contains the most snooty arrogant people I've ever come across I'm not sure which city is worse Memphis or KC.
I'll pick KC because they're a thorn in STL side.
Yeah good job KC for bashing STL even though your intentions were to thank STL so condescendingly.
Its not that i dislike KC its i dislike how the folks there treat STL.