Foxconn scouting the Midwest

beer city · PostJul 23, 2017#12017-07-23T19:10+00:00

Probably another long shot but Foxconn, makers of Apple products, monitors and TVs is going to build a 7 to 10 billion dollar plant.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/22/foxconn- ... -location/

They are researching 7 states - 5 in the Midwest, Pennsylvania and Texas - they will choose 3 states next month to further narrow the field - Illinois is on that list - No mention of what they are looking for in infrastructure or incentives or where IL would push them towards Chicagoland

It seems they pulled all the stops out in the metro east to lure NGA - This could be larger, maybe much larger, with more spin off industry to support the primary factory then NGA - Lots of open land around MAA, nothing has been locally reported yet makes me think that if IL is in the game, the metro east is not.

urban_dilettante · PostJul 25, 2017#22017-07-25T23:13+00:00

looks like Wisconsin is getting it.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/money/r ... /592161728

whitherSTL · PostJul 26, 2017#32017-07-26T15:59+00:00

I realize that many here are progressives who have utter disdain for Trump. But facts are facts and he is making it a priority to bring manufacturing back to the US, and in particular the Midwest. Wait till you all hear the Apple news forthcoming.

Anyway, in typical Missouri and STL fashion, we're missing out on all of this. What?

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostJul 26, 2017#42017-07-26T16:47+00:00

whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Jul 26, 2017
I realize that many here are progressives who have utter disdain for Trump. But facts are facts and he is making it a priority to bring manufacturing back to the US, and in particular the Midwest. Wait till you all hear the Apple news forthcoming.

Anyway, in typical Missouri and STL fashion, we're missing out on all of this. What?

I believe Apple, Foxconn's largest customer, asked that they move some facilities to the US last June - in order to create a domestic supply chain for Apple to begin working on iPhones here in the US. But yes, facts are facts. Thanks, Obama.

pat · PostJul 26, 2017#52017-07-26T18:03+00:00

But facts are facts and he is making it a priority to bring manufacturing back to the US, and in particular the Midwest.

A priority that he has been unsuccessful at accomplishing and will likely not accomplish.

Ebsy · PostJul 26, 2017#62017-07-26T18:10+00:00

Obviously I am happy to see investment in the midwest and glad people in Wisconsin will be employed, one highly automated factory is a drop in the bucket and will do little to reverse long term trends.

whitherSTL · PostJul 26, 2017#72017-07-26T18:36+00:00

I screwed up with my previous post. Missouri and STL shouldn't be going after any of these new manufacturing developments. We have enough jobs and our economy is perfect.

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostJul 26, 2017#82017-07-26T18:45+00:00

whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Jul 26, 2017
I screwed up with my previous post. Missouri and STL shouldn't be going after any of these new manufacturing developments. We have enough jobs and our economy is perfect.

I think the screw-up was your condescension of "progressives" and trying to equate something that was already in the works to an administration that has attempted to claim many victories yet actually produced little.

I don't think anyone on here would argue against STL/MO going after new businesses.

So take the "holier-than-thou" attitude out of your posts.

earthling · PostJul 26, 2017#92017-07-26T21:55+00:00

There's something fishy about this. Why build the screens in US when final product would be assembled likely outside US, probably shipped back to Asia. Foxconn wouldn't do this unless there is some significant incentive, maybe more under the table than the $1B-$3B of $10B investment that has been disclosed, which seems like a very Trump thing to do.

Ebsy · PostJul 26, 2017#102017-07-26T23:51+00:00

It's more likely that the factory isn't built at all.

symphonicpoet · PostJul 27, 2017#112017-07-27T04:28+00:00

earthling wrote: ↑
Jul 26, 2017
There's something fishy about this. Why build the screens in US when final product would be assembled likely outside US, probably shipped back to Asia.

I seem to recall that the screens were intended to be larger. Is it possible they could be used for multiple products and not just Apple? If that were the case then it might be worth building here if you expect some business here. In auto manufacturing, say. Or appliances. Or control automation. Or medical equipment. Or . . . lord only knows what all. There's more and more tech using touch screens all the time. And demand for more flash and dash is increasing, for sexier UIs and so forth, which will drive up demand for higher resolution and 3D touch even in things like refrigerator doors. Unless Apple has an exclusivity clause, which while certainly possible is hardly a given, them there might be quite good reason to build here. Particularly if you think you might move other production as well. Chinese labor is getting more expensive. Automation is improving. Why pay a hundred workers in China when you can pay two in the US? (That being the other thing to keep in mind. There probably won't be terribly many people in this plant. Lot of robots, no doubt, but they're not looking to unionize yet.)

Chalupas54 · PostJul 27, 2017#122017-07-27T06:12+00:00

This whole Foxconn thing stinks to the high heavens...

earthling · PostJul 27, 2017#132017-07-27T08:58+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jul 27, 2017

earthling wrote: ↑
Jul 26, 2017
There's something fishy about this. Why build the screens in US when final product would be assembled likely outside US, probably shipped back to Asia.
I seem to recall that the screens were intended to be larger. Is it possible they could be used for multiple products and not just Apple?

So it sounds like the screens might be for Sharp TVs, which Foxconn acquired recently. If the entire TV is assembled in US then it may make sense. But also suspect is that Sharp left the US TV market a couple years ago due to very low US market share, then Foxconn buys it. So US is giving corporate welfare to help them re-enter market with no established market share. It could very well fail, $10B investment sounds highly risky. And who knows how much Trump is 'promising' under the table given how desperate he is to follow through with his claims.

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostJul 27, 2017#142017-07-27T11:04+00:00

earthling wrote: ↑
Jul 27, 2017

So it sounds like the screens might be for Sharp TVs, which Foxconn acquired recently. If the entire TV is assembled in US then it may make sense. But also suspect is that Sharp left the US TV market a couple years ago due to very low US market share, then Foxconn buys it. So US is giving corporate welfare to help them re-enter market with no established market share. It could very well fail, $10B investment sounds highly risky. And who knows how much Trump is 'promising' under the table given how desperate he is to follow through with his claims.

No, no, no. It's a free market! Only the best companies will survive.

dredger · PostJul 27, 2017#152017-07-27T18:01+00:00

My bet is you won't find many happy people at Carrier as six months ago when the spin was full on and Indiana handed out a few more millions.

My two cents on why I think NGA is better situation then Foxconn for St. Louis.

1) NGA is happening, yes it is just relocating a current workforce but everything I have read and understand is for growth and to take employee count to 5000 and beyond without giving up earnings tax. Anyone filling ATT One Center is coming at reduce tax revenue to the city to make the deal.
2) As Ricke002 put it. NGA is a 1.6 billion hard dollar investment coming into the city. Gov Walker wants to give up $3 billion in tax revenues for its citizens at the benefit of Foxconn. Gov Walker give away makes HTC look like chump change which you hope gives some perspective of a successful development tool at lot less cost to taxpayers but doubt MO Statehouse will look at it that way.
3) Yes, Missouri was willing to give up to $2 billion for Boeing but would take Boeing's track record in US any day. Foxconn hasn't delivered on previous promises. Maybe it will be different with Sharp TV
3) Their is a reason why electronics are manufactured on global scale. A product that fills a small package with high value can be easily shipped and gains with cheap places to put together Maybe different with Sharp TV but see a lot of components still coming over from Asia or Mexico.

I have even a tougher time believing Apple is going to set up big shops in US. They tried once and promptly pulled away.

What I hope St Louis region would do is build a relationship or at least try with Airbus. Maybe they are already. Getting them to build airplane components in St. Louis for their Mobile assembly plant or even other plants would be huge. St. Louis has such a strong aviation history and presence that some how connecting with Airbus would be a much better fit then say Foxconn, an electronic manufacturer IMO

symphonicpoet · PostJul 28, 2017#162017-07-28T05:57+00:00

dredger wrote: ↑
Jul 27, 2017
What I hope St Louis region would do is build a relationship or at least try with Airbus. Maybe they are already. Getting them to build airplane components in St. Louis for their Mobile assembly plant or even other plants would be huge. St. Louis has such a strong aviation history and presence that some how connecting with Airbus would be a much better fit then say Foxconn, an electronic manufacturer IMO

Airbus or perhaps even just as well Bombardier or maybe even Mitsubishi. The key might be convincing suppliers like GKN to expand and diversify their operations here. (I believe they are, in fact, already an Airbus supplier, though doubtless not out of the Boeing shop they run here, which is tied to F-18 stabilator production, I believe.)

dredger · PostJul 28, 2017#172017-07-28T15:37+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jul 28, 2017

dredger wrote: ↑
Jul 27, 2017
What I hope St Louis region would do is build a relationship or at least try with Airbus. Maybe they are already. Getting them to build airplane components in St. Louis for their Mobile assembly plant or even other plants would be huge. St. Louis has such a strong aviation history and presence that some how connecting with Airbus would be a much better fit then say Foxconn, an electronic manufacturer IMO
Airbus or perhaps even just as well Bombardier or maybe even Mitsubishi. The key might be convincing suppliers like GKN to expand and diversify their operations here. (I believe they are, in fact, already an Airbus supplier, though doubtless not out of the Boeing shop they run here, which is tied to F-18 stabilator production, I believe.)

Bombardier is tough. I just go back to when I believe they played KC or maybe it Kansas for a new aircraft assembly plant in order to get concessions from the Canadian government to keep it Montreal if I remember right. Airbus came to my mind for the fact that they already assemble planes in the US and Europeans have a strong St Louis business presence.

The other thought, Its only a matter of time before their is a Chinese player in the commercial market.

STLrainbow · PostJul 28, 2017#182017-07-28T17:12+00:00

^ iirc there was a special legislative session called to approve incentives specifically to lure Bombadier to KCMO.

EDIT... not a special session

Bombardier to build plant in Canada instead of Kansas City
Published Monday, July 14, 2008

KANSAS CITY (AP) - After months of effort and a $240-million incentive package, Missouri officials lost their bid to lure Canadian aircraft giant Bombardier’s multimillion-dollar plant to Kansas City.

Yesterday, Bombardier, the world’s third-largest civilian plane manufacturer, announced in England that it would manufacture its new C-series aircraft at Mirabel, a suburb of Montreal, with the wings made at a site in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

Kansas City was the only other competitor for Bombardier’s proposed $375 million plant, which could employ as many as 2,100 people.

Earlier this year, Gov. Matt Blunt signed into law legislation authorizing $240 million in tax incentives for the Canadian airplane maker.

The law represented Missouri’s largest-ever offer in the international competition for big-ticket business projects...

PostJul 28, 2017#192017-07-28T18:04+00:00

wow, this proposal would require cold hard cash and not just revenue not collected because of tax credits, etc.

Foxconn could get up to $200 million in cash a year from state residents for up to 15 years

MADISON - To lure Foxconn Technology Group to Wisconsin, state residents will have to do more than just forgo taxes from the Taiwanese electronics giant. They will have to pay cash — writing checks for up to $200 million a year.

The subsidies for the deal would amount to nearly 50 times the previous record paid by Wisconsin taxpayers to secure a manufacturing plant in the state. Instead of getting the previous state standard of 7 cents in tax credits for every $1 in qualifying payroll checks to workers, Foxconn would get 17 cents in credits — a change that will require sign off from lawmakers.

And because Wisconsin already waives all taxes on manufacturing profits in the state, these incentives represent not a lost opportunity at collecting revenues but an obligation to pay cash to Foxconn out of the state treasury for up to 15 years for a total of up to $3 billion. That figure doesn't account for the still undisclosed amount that local governments will have to provide in additional incentives....

symphonicpoet · PostJul 29, 2017#202017-07-29T07:10+00:00

dredger wrote: ↑
Jul 28, 2017

Bombardier is tough. I just go back to when I believe they played KC or maybe it Kansas for a new aircraft assembly plant in order to get concessions from the Canadian government to keep it Montreal if I remember right. Airbus came to my mind for the fact that they already assemble planes in the US and Europeans have a strong St Louis business presence.

The other thought, Its only a matter of time before their is a Chinese player in the commercial market.

I completely forgot about the bid to lure Bombardier. That said, the previous effort was an either/or kind of thing, was it not? The KC plant would have largely replaced existing infrastructure in Canada? If they grow (and all signs point to yes there) they'll have to open another plant eventually.

As to a Chinese player, I'd have said CoMAC is already in the game, albeit only in a small way so far. Their DC-9.5 (ARJ21) started flying in commercial service a year or two back. Not many yet, but it's still early days. And on paper their new C919 should be roughly comparable to Bombardier's CSesries. It's not in production yet, but the prototype is flying. I'd say CoMAC is the real deal. Still small, but they've got jets with paying passengers. Only a matter of time before they have more orders. China is large, folks are growing more and more wealthy there, and domestic airlines are getting bigger. And if wiki is correct they already have over three hundred orders. Look to them to grow fast. More will follow.

If Boeing isn't kicking themselves for killing the DC-9/MD-80/B 717 . . . Whoops. All of these new birds are about that size. As is the new MRJ, for that matter, which is really the plane I want to see. Boeing and Airbus have not had remotely enough competition since Boeing bought McDonnel and Lockheed gave up on seats. Anyway . . .

Yes, there is more room for aviation production in town. Obviously. And Airbus is a solid company with a great track record. Never had a complaint about the A3x products I've ridden. I'd be happy to see local suppliers making parts, or even maybe finding space to build an assembly plant. It's clearly something worth pursuing for those in a position to do so.

Trololzilla · PostJul 29, 2017#212017-07-29T08:02+00:00

Eh, I'd use the term "flying" pretty loosely with the ARJ21 - I believe the few they've actually built spend more time on the ground undergoing maintenance than actually flying passengers. TBH I only see it as a stopgap project, one that won't garner many more orders (especially considering it's performance so far) and is more of a testbed program aimed at seeing if COMAC was ready to become a serious contender in the civil aviation market. That remains to be seen, although I definitely would like the C919 (and the possible future C929, etc.) to be successful and I believe it has the ability to do so. That said, I'm still not entirely convinced COMAC will sell too much of anything outside of Asia and Africa for the foreseeable future due to pressure from Airbus/Boeing and the West's general leeriness of "Made in China", and so I see COMAC keeping production closer to home for quite some time.

The MRJ has it's own problems, and I'm still skeptical that it'll actually "take-off", so to speak. Now Bombardier with the CSeries is a legitimate and serious contender to the A/B duopoly in the narrowbody, non-regional airplane market; one only has to look as far as Boeing's recent (hypocritical) litigation against Bombardier regarding the CSeries. The performance data from the planes already in service is remarkable and exceeding the paper numbers in essentially every facet, and the airlines that have received theirs have pretty much fallen in love with it, and I expect at least one significant order for it within the next year or so. If and when the CS500 is offered, A/B might have to consider conceding the entire bottom end of their lineups to Bombardier. However, given Bombardier's financial difficulties, I find myself having to curb my enthusiasm a bit. If they can get the money issues sorted out and garner more sales of the CSeries (and not have a manufacturing meltdown in the process), then a CSeries plant in St. Louis would be an enormous gain for the region, IMO.

I'd love to see an Airbus factory here, even if just for the potential for hilarity given that both Airbus and Boeing would have manufacturing facilities in the same city (and quite possibly share the same airport - imagine the billboards and Twitter fights that could result in). One would think that having an Airbus facility of any kind here would also almost force at least one European nonstop flight.

At the risk of derailing the topic further, I'll stop there.

Chalupas54 · PostJul 29, 2017#222017-07-29T12:31+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote:
dredger wrote: ↑
Jul 28, 2017

Bombardier is tough. I just go back to when I believe they played KC or maybe it Kansas for a new aircraft assembly plant in order to get concessions from the Canadian government to keep it Montreal if I remember right. Airbus came to my mind for the fact that they already assemble planes in the US and Europeans have a strong St Louis business presence.

The other thought, Its only a matter of time before their is a Chinese player in the commercial market.
I completely forgot about the bid to lure Bombardier. That said, the previous effort was an either/or kind of thing, was it not? The KC plant would have largely replaced existing infrastructure in Canada? If they grow (and all signs point to yes there) they'll have to open another plant eventually.

As to a Chinese player, I'd have said CoMAC is already in the game, albeit only in a small way so far. Their DC-9.5 (ARJ21) started flying in commercial service a year or two back. Not many yet, but it's still early days. And on paper their new C919 should be roughly comparable to Bombardier's CSesries. It's not in production yet, but the prototype is flying. I'd say CoMAC is the real deal. Still small, but they've got jets with paying passengers. Only a matter of time before they have more orders. China is large, folks are growing more and more wealthy there, and domestic airlines are getting bigger. And if wiki is correct they already have over three hundred orders. Look to them to grow fast. More will follow.

If Boeing isn't kicking themselves for killing the DC-9/MD-80/B 717 . . . Whoops. All of these new birds are about that size. As is the new MRJ, for that matter, which is really the plane I want to see. Boeing and Airbus have not had remotely enough competition since Boeing bought McDonnel and Lockheed gave up on seats. Anyway . . .

Yes, there is more room for aviation production in town. Obviously. And Airbus is a solid company with a great track record. Never had a complaint about the A3x products I've ridden. I'd be happy to see local suppliers making parts, or even maybe finding space to build an assembly plant. It's clearly something worth pursuing for those in a position to do so.

Unfortunately, you can find article upon article stating how plagued Chinese aviation programs are with really huge problems. They all have failed to meet Western Aviation guidelines, and cannot perform flights outside of China. Don't expect to see Chinese planes near you anytime soon. Even if they do get mass produced, their safety issues will prevent them from operating much out of Asia. I believe the ARJ21 is banned from operating over Japan and RoK(South Korea). To add even more to this, they will never ever ever ever ever construct them in the United States- ever.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

symphonicpoet · PostJul 30, 2017#232017-07-30T03:06+00:00

Chalupas54 wrote: ↑
Jul 29, 2017
Unfortunately, you can find article upon article stating how plagued Chinese aviation programs are with really huge problems. They all have failed to meet Western Aviation guidelines, and cannot perform flights outside of China. Don't expect to see Chinese planes near you anytime soon. Even if they do get mass produced, their safety issues will prevent them from operating much out of Asia. I believe the ARJ21 is banned from operating over Japan and RoK(South Korea). To add even more to this, they will never ever ever ever ever construct them in the United States- ever.

I travel to East Asia fairly regularly, and I've flown through Shanghai Pudong more than once. So I'll be near them eventually if I haven't been already. I don't know that they've been to Hong Kong yet, but I believe they've been through Shanghai more than once. I don't expect to ride one of the local offerings anytime soon, but . . . again, China is large and they already have three hundred orders. I expect I'll board one eventually. Yes, it's a test project. Sure, it'll take time to get the kinks worked out. More than usual, even, as CoMAC is new to the game. But I wouldn't count on all that stuff lasting "forever." Forever is a very long time and China is a very very old country. Chinese business can afford to be patient. I wouldn't write them off just because they're not getting good reviews in the Western press. I think several Chinese companies have amply demonstrated that you can not only survive, but indeed thrive on Chinese domestic business alone. But this one will go beyond merely domestic, I'm sure. I'd bet on it. Might be fifty years before they open a plant overseas, though, so if you qualify your statements with "in my lifetime" you may well be right. That's harder to know.

Trololzilla wrote:The MRJ has it's own problems, and I'm still skeptical that it'll actually "take-off", so to speak.

And yes, the MRJ has issues as well, but I expect Mitsubishi can get them sorted out. And they too have orders. Doesn't mean they won't all end up canceled, but it would surprise me at least a little. Bombaridier is easily the safest bet to break into the A/B game in a large way, but I would be really surprised if there aren't at least some new smaller players emerging soon. The airliner market is changing a lot right now. I expect that to actually accelerate. It's going to be . . . interesting.

Trololzilla wrote:At the risk of derailing the topic further, I'll stop there.

But yes, this is way off topic. Would an admin wish to move the aircraft business to a new thread? Not sure where would even be the best place for it, as it's a little off topic for the forum in general, but it's certainly a subject with some real local significance.

moorlander · PostApr 23, 2021#242021-04-23T18:58+00:00

Foxconn Finally Admits Con
But Wisconsin remains on the hook for as much as $1.34 billion for the doomed project. The folly of throwing money at corporations as a jobs strategy has never been clearer.

The over/under on job creation for the Foxconn project in Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin, was always approximately zero, and I would have taken the under every time. The ballyhooed deal officially blew up this week, when the Taiwanese electronics manufacturer—famed for producing Apple’s iPhones in an immense Chinese factory so dehumanizing that it drove workers there to suicide—dramatically downsized its promised $10 billion commitment in the plant by more than 90 percent, and reduced its jobs promise to 1,454, down from 13,000. The new targets just delay the inevitable pullout, leaving behind an enormous debt for local officials and ratepayers, who prepared themselves for an industrial revolution that will never come.

Read more here

https://prospect.org/power/foxconn-finally-admits-con/

BellaVilla · PostApr 23, 2021#252021-04-23T19:10+00:00

More evidence that elephant hunting is generally a bad economic development policy. Investing in small businesses and entrepreneurs yields a far greater ROI. I mentioned this is another thread, but its bears repeating here. In 10 years, Arch Grants has provided $9M in grants to 173 startups. Those startups have generated more than $400M in revenue, raised more than $300M in new funding, and have created more than 2K jobs. How much would it cost in Tax Incentives to lure an existing company that offered $2K jobs? Like the 10s of millions if not more.