urbanSTL

Over 5800 residential units completed in last year or in progress. Greater Downtown KC should hit well over 30K population when these complete, which urban planners consider critical mass for a highly functioning downtown.

http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20343

The free streetcar is a major reason why downtown KC is attracting national developers (with of course improvements with venues, amenities, etc). It's only 2.2 miles but it's like a horizontal elevator ride seamlessly tying together different downtown districts. It's very different than commuter LRT, very effective for what it wants to be.

edit: Fixed link

earthling wrote:Over 5800 residential units completed in last year or in progress. Greater Downtown KC should hit well over 30K population when these complete, which urban planners consider critical mass for a highly functioning downtown.

http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2 ... 85#p566485

The free streetcar is a major reason why downtown KC is attracting national developers (with of course improvements with venues, amenities, etc). It's only 2.2 miles but it's like a horizontal elevator ride seamlessly tying together different downtown districts. It's very different than commuter LRT, very effective for what it wants to be.

I thought the streetcar was going to begin charging?


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No plans ever to, it's generating so much tax revenue surplus in the district that they've already ordered two more trains. The expansion to Plaza/UMKC also intended to always be free to ride.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/kc ... 25299.html

earthling wrote:No plans ever to, it's generating so much tax revenue in the district that they've already ordered two more trains. The expansion to Plaza/UMKC also intended to always be free to ride.

That's awesome. If only KC got their Airport in order that city would honestly be a sparkling gem. Sometimes I have to remind myself that STL is the larger city of the two. Hopefully the problems we face here in St Louis can be rectified in the next decade so that we can enjoy the growth they have. If I'm not mistaken, isn't Kansas City seeing more growth than STL in terms of startups?


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Will be interesting to see streetcar impact long term but for now the reality is that it's attracting national developers (thousands more residential units, significantly more hotel rooms), biz along the line does significantly more biz than before it existed (and significant bump in tax revenues to pay to keep the streetcar free), the ridership is among highest in nation per mile (because it's free of course). Downtown is about to hit over well over 30K residents, which urban planners claim is the critical mass point to become highly functional.

I'm skeptical about impact of streetcar extending to Midtown. It clearly serves its purpose for local service but the Midtown/Plaza expansion can either be commuter or local service, not succeed at both. There will likely need to be a companion express bus along line if midtown line ends up functioning as a local service.

As far as KC being 'small town', well yes it generally leans that way, and is part of the appeal. Don't understand the diss on that. Many big city amenities with small town feel, that's a reason many people move there. And hopefully it won't boom too much, which shouldn't be a problem given KANSAS in the name. (MO anti-progressive politics not much better). But it is growing at a decent enough pace and the economy has always been above avg. Will be interesting to see if KC can take advantage as a major player in Smart City industry, which is for now drawing attention towards KC. And yes, the airport sucks. A new terminal will happen. KC's worst problem is the airport at this point, which is probably easier to fix than (edit: challenges other cities have). Though KC has its crime problems too, just not as high profile.

Let's all calm down, no need to bash Kc. In regards to the Ferguson effect, I don't think it's really a thing anymore, or was it ever, really. The majority of the country did not know Ferguson was in St. Louis. All they knew was it was in Missouri. The "effect" of it was really only maybe for a year, and that only permeated to close nearby areas. Also, the reach of the problem wasn't really that big. St Louis saw an increase in tourism that year, and we didn't see businesses flee the region. I think the only significance Ferguson had was a wake up call not only for STL, But for the country. I was living in the Minneapolis area during the protests and I don't think anyone knew that it was in St. Louis. So I don't really think that exists anymore. I believe Baltimore had an even bigger rep blow with their riots which were far more disruptive and damaging than those in St Louis, as theirs took place in the city center as well. The one thing St. Louis really always will be identified through is the Arch and not civil unrest. Even the St. Louis crime problem is not covered nationally. Yes, St. Louis tops lists, but the only people that ever read those lists are really St. Louisans. Chicago is believed to be a war zone pretty much all across the country. Surprisingly, many people believe Minneapolis is a killing ground for police given its recent bad publicity.


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^Hmm, the Ferguson impact still lingers. I spend winters in Florida, LA and some of sprint in NYC - at times mention I'm originally from STL. Ferguson tends to be where the conversation quickly changes. I was in Florida during the riots and you'd be surprised the impact it had on people.

But sorry I brought it up, shouldn't have made any STL comparisons as it would of course instantly be dissected. Will keep this thread to KC.

The airport is probably KC's biggest problem now (other than crime too) and should eventually be easier to fix 'than significant challenges other cities have'. I've edited last post to reflect that instead of STL comparison.

earthling wrote:^Hmm, the Ferguson impact still lingers. I spend winters in Florida, LA and NYC in spring - at times mention I'm originally from STL. Ferguson tends to be where the conversation quickly changes. I was in Florida during the riots and you'd be surprised the impact it had on people.

But sorry I brought it up, shouldn't have made any STL comparisons as it would of course instantly be dissected. Will keep this thread to KC.

The airport is probably KC's biggest problem now (other than crime too) and should eventually be easier to fix 'than significant challenges other cities have'.

Really? That's surprising. I've lived away from St. Louis almost 6 years now, and the last one and half have been in the NYC area. I've never really encountered it. Not that they don't *know* about Ferguson, but they usually don't associate St. Louis with Ferguson. I have however been asked if I could see the Arch from my house, haha. Be what it may, the Ferguson fiasco gives STL a great jumping off point to recover, however long that may take, lmao. Back to KC!


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^Got it, though click this Google News search on "Ferguson riots", there are many references still, including many that are very recent. Back on thread topic..

So KC definitely having increase in crime too. The focus has been Westport problems after 2AM weekends, it's been bad lately. I live in Westport zip and walk dog or bike to central Westport several times a week, I wouldn't stay after 11PM weekends. But it's otherwise becoming a really nice and functional nieghborhoody place outside the obnoxious weekend late night crowds. Two large residential projects recently announced too in heart of WP. Midtown is finally starting to get more action as well. The Plaza is more lame than ever.

KC doesn't seem to have a significant cop relationship problem with inner city yet but could explode any moment.

Does the KC streetcar have any crime issues? Just wondering if the free fare draws unruly teens, or do the homeless use it for a place to catch a nap?

I've looked for streetcar crime reports closely and haven't seen anything yet. I would've expected increase of pickpockets as the streetcars are literally packed like sardines on some Saturday afternoons and major events. Haven't seen anything reported (and have asked about it on KC forum). But it's also possible reports are being suppressed to not kill the investment and momentum. They manned it with KCMO police at first but haven't lately. There are 'downtown CID security' crews who ride it once in a while weekdays but not often. The bus system has a fairly serious episode or two every year usually on E Side, nothing at major problem levels. I ride bus often in central corridor (including Troost) and it's fine, the occasional obnoxious rider but that's about it, and not directly hassling other riders.

Homeless don't have a chance to nap very long on streetcar because at the Union Station end everyone must exit and driver walks through to other end. So only a 4.4 mile circle. Might be a different scenario when expanded to UMKC and along riverfront.

BTW, KC's bikeshare system has just added 7 more bikeshare stations as 'coming soon', just now showing up on map, approaching 40 stations. North KC added a few stations a few months ago, a few more may still be coming this year and likely more growth each year.
https://kc.bcycle.com/station-map

matguy70 wrote: ↑

Jul 26, 2017

The streetcar is a toy train IMO. It runs a 2 miles and you can walk faster or take the bus which flies by it. It is a fun tourist attraction and not a viable mass transit option IMO.

Don't be so harsh on the trolley

Yeah, might be case with Delmar Loop trolley. KC's is clearly a major factor adding to downtown momentum. Business has boomed so much along the line since it opened that tax surplus allows buying two more streetcars after just a year, way beyond projections. There have been many hotel/residential developers specifically stating streetcar as the driver of their interest. I have a bus pass so don't always need it but there's no doubt local downtown service has its place, especially when free.

train_bike wrote: ↑

Jul 27, 2017

matguy70 wrote: ↑

Jul 26, 2017

The streetcar is a toy train IMO. It runs a 2 miles and you can walk faster or take the bus which flies by it. It is a fun tourist attraction and not a viable mass transit option IMO.

Don't be so harsh on the trolley

i doubt anyone would try to argue that the Loop Trolley is a "viable mass transit option" (which was never Joe's intention).
at this point i think it's also fair to say that KC's streetcar isn't yet a "viable mass transit option", but unlike the Loop Trolley it has the potential to become a full-fledged system. let's also not forget, however, that St. Louis already has 46 miles of Metrolink with another 17+ mile N-S line to be running by 2023 if all goes according to plan.

KC's streetcar at this point acts more like a downtown circulator, which is a form of 'mass transit', but it is not at all a commuter line. It's very effective as local service, tying together downtown districts seamlessly. When it expands, I think it would be a mistake to try to adapt it to a commuter line. It should be targeted as 'local service' for each area and as 'leisure service' for non-commuters between major districts (visitors). Some kind of express service will be needed for commuters such as adding commuter rail to freight rail lines (difficult in KC with major freight rail activity) and also true BRT along streetcar lines. DC has an effective express BRT along a streetcar line.

And being free makes a huge difference in attracting riders. It has the highest ridership of most any transit per mile because it free, still might be #1 (the streetcar authority claimed this at one point).

earthling wrote:Yeah, might be case with Delmar Loop trolley. KC's is clearly a major factor adding to downtown momentum. Business has boomed so much along the line since it opened that tax surplus allows buying two more streetcars after just a year, way beyond projections. There have been many hotel/residential developers specifically stating streetcar as the driver of their interest. I have a bus pass so don't always need it but there's no doubt local downtown service has its place, especially when free.

It is beautiful and wonderful to hear it's a success. I wish we had those modern street cars here.

all n all...I prefer our metro-link!

earthling wrote: ↑

Jul 28, 2017

KC's streetcar at this point acts more like a downtown circulator, which is a form of 'mass transit', but it is not at all a commuter line...

And being free makes a huge difference in attracting riders. It has the highest ridership of most any transit per mile because it free, still might be #1 (the streetcar authority claimed this at one point).

right. i was thinking more along the lines of mass transit = transit for commuting. don't get me wrong; the KC street car is fantastic and i hope it keeps expanding. and certainly MetroLink has plenty of room for improvement. i wonder if the street car will be able to maintain fairless operation if/as it continues to expand.

Yup, no comparison of course because one is a commuter service and other is local service. There is no comparison because they aren't comparable, targeting different purposes (like a utility truck serves different purpose than utility van).

The success of KC's streetcar isn't just the nature of riding that form of transit (local free service), it's the significant amount of development it's attracting. One good thing about only having 2.2 miles at first it that it focuses developers along that short path. River Market has a project proposed/UC now for just about every remaining surface lot (projects attributed to streetcar's existence). Xroads and CBD getting many more too. Is realistic by the time streetcar expands to Midtown/Plaza, every downtown remaining lot near streetcar line has a project lined up and then developer attention focuses towards Midtown extension.

The River Market area is really awesome. I've long been jealous of the Arabia museum, and now it sounds like that whole area is booming.

Topping out ceremony today for Two Light

http://www.kctv5.com/clip/13555756/two- ... -continues