it's my understanding that the city is already prepared to take the st louis center with imminent domain, so i'm not sure that collecting signatures would be necessary. it's also my understanding that cohen is supposedly trying to sell, so i guess he's not the only one looking to remove his involvement. my hope is that whatever happens with it that whoever develops it would be smart enough to leave the gym where it is.
- 10K
I think we should organize a public protest outside that sh-- hole. 
I would be in favor of that action. I have always wondered why people protest the tearing down of buildings, yet do not protest when such an eyesore like the centre is not torn down.
- 1,610
But a gym really doesn't need a street-level storefront. Storefront retail is best used for activities that depend upon enticing walk-by traffic, or impulse buyers. Where we eat is one of the most impulsive decisions we make, such that restaurants usually love storefronts, but retail works well in such street-level spaces too.
I suppose a gym has to initially entice you to join, but the bulk of daily walk-ins will be committed members, and those considering joining can find out about the gym in other ways than just happening to walk by one day. In other words, it seems like a wasted opportunity to have such a highly visible corner be a gym.
The former Office Max or Depot was great in this spot, but perhaps a little too early in downtown's revitalization to have succeeded. And so, a gym is obviously better than a vacant corner, but I would hope that someday some use generating more foot traffic would be possible.
I suppose a gym has to initially entice you to join, but the bulk of daily walk-ins will be committed members, and those considering joining can find out about the gym in other ways than just happening to walk by one day. In other words, it seems like a wasted opportunity to have such a highly visible corner be a gym.
The former Office Max or Depot was great in this spot, but perhaps a little too early in downtown's revitalization to have succeeded. And so, a gym is obviously better than a vacant corner, but I would hope that someday some use generating more foot traffic would be possible.
- 10K
I got a kick out of this blurb from the Downtown Partnership's e-mail update:
In the same session, American Planning Association CEO Paul Farmer said that the last five years have been very good for cities and particularly for downtowns. During his remarks, he noted that ?most downtown internal shopping malls have failed ? and deserved to.? (No argument here.)
southslider wrote:But a gym really doesn't need a street-level storefront. Storefront retail is best used for activities that depend upon enticing walk-by traffic, or impulse buyers. Where we eat is one of the most impulsive decisions we make, such that restaurants usually love storefronts, but retail works well in such street-level spaces too.
I suppose a gym has to initially entice you to join, but the bulk of daily walk-ins will be committed members, and those considering joining can find out about the gym in other ways than just happening to walk by one day. In other words, it seems like a wasted opportunity to have such a highly visible corner be a gym.
The former Office Max or Depot was great in this spot, but perhaps a little too early in downtown's revitalization to have succeeded. And so, a gym is obviously better than a vacant corner, but I would hope that someday some use generating more foot traffic would be possible.
that's certainly true to a degree, and i've heard that the gym may yet end up on another level, but they do get a lot of walk ins just based on the fact that they're so visible
I will add that in the right enviroment, a gym can be a great street level addition. While it might not have the importance of enticing people to walk in, the activity of people working out, if visable from the sidewalk can add some intersting activity to the street.
haha, like undesirable types leering in the windows? that's probably the biggest thing i don't like about the new location. once it gets dark especially you're just on display
Great!
So the sick people getting their prescriptions filled need to walk upstairs.
While the healthy althletic people just walk in from the ground level.
Irony sweet Irony
So the sick people getting their prescriptions filled need to walk upstairs.
While the healthy althletic people just walk in from the ground level.
Irony sweet Irony
I would be so happy if they did something to attract people down there. It seems that it's a little sketchy around there now - more than it used to be. I would love it if they took down that stupid bridge too - it doesn't do anything for the city. People would go there if it was spruced up just a little bit. We have so many people come down there for conventions, it's dumb not to have retail shops just there. There's money to be made in that area...
james wrote:So the sick people getting their prescriptions filled need to walk upstairs.
Or take the elevators or escalators in Famous/Macy's.
I can't imagine Federated is just sitting by and isn't involved with the City in making sure something happens here.
letter to the editor from the post today...
"Morgue of malls
Opening an otherwise vital shop such as Borders inside St. Louis Centre is like burying it alive. The building is a testament to a lingering civic failure that the lethargic owner just can't admit.
St. Louis Centre's design is incompatible with urban dynamics. Its architectural unattractiveness keeps people out, even if there is something attractive inside. Why, then, are city officials luring Borders into the Venus fly trap of downtown shopping? Borders won't turn a profit there -- nothing else does -- and will have to close. After that, Borders' ownership will be reluctant to locate a store anywhere downtown because the failure at the Morgue of Malls will signal (spuriously) that there's no market in downtown St. Louis. But Borders would do just fine outside unsalvageable St. Louis Centre, on a surface parking lot or on Broadway or Fourth Street or Washington Avenue or Olive Street. And Borders would do splendidly atop the rubble of a demolished St. Louis Centre.
James Forsythe | Richmond Heights"
umm...I don't think this guy likes STLCentre
A borders might work if they were allowed to have some sort of storefront, I'm not sure what the plan would be...I can't believe that they'd actually consider going inside the mall.
"Morgue of malls
Opening an otherwise vital shop such as Borders inside St. Louis Centre is like burying it alive. The building is a testament to a lingering civic failure that the lethargic owner just can't admit.
St. Louis Centre's design is incompatible with urban dynamics. Its architectural unattractiveness keeps people out, even if there is something attractive inside. Why, then, are city officials luring Borders into the Venus fly trap of downtown shopping? Borders won't turn a profit there -- nothing else does -- and will have to close. After that, Borders' ownership will be reluctant to locate a store anywhere downtown because the failure at the Morgue of Malls will signal (spuriously) that there's no market in downtown St. Louis. But Borders would do just fine outside unsalvageable St. Louis Centre, on a surface parking lot or on Broadway or Fourth Street or Washington Avenue or Olive Street. And Borders would do splendidly atop the rubble of a demolished St. Louis Centre.
James Forsythe | Richmond Heights"
umm...I don't think this guy likes STLCentre
A borders might work if they were allowed to have some sort of storefront, I'm not sure what the plan would be...I can't believe that they'd actually consider going inside the mall.
- 5,433
stl555 wrote:letter to the editor from the post today...
"Morgue of malls
Opening an otherwise vital shop such as Borders inside St. Louis Centre is like burying it alive. The building is a testament to a lingering civic failure that the lethargic owner just can't admit.
St. Louis Centre's design is incompatible with urban dynamics. Its architectural unattractiveness keeps people out, even if there is something attractive inside. Why, then, are city officials luring Borders into the Venus fly trap of downtown shopping? Borders won't turn a profit there -- nothing else does -- and will have to close. After that, Borders' ownership will be reluctant to locate a store anywhere downtown because the failure at the Morgue of Malls will signal (spuriously) that there's no market in downtown St. Louis. But Borders would do just fine outside unsalvageable St. Louis Centre, on a surface parking lot or on Broadway or Fourth Street or Washington Avenue or Olive Street. And Borders would do splendidly atop the rubble of a demolished St. Louis Centre.
James Forsythe | Richmond Heights"
umm...I don't think this guy likes STLCentre
A borders might work if they were allowed to have some sort of storefront, I'm not sure what the plan would be...I can't believe that they'd actually consider going inside the mall.
Well, the tone is cynical, (how can a person NOT be cynical about Saint Louis Centre after years of abandonment and inaction?) but I agree with Mr. Forsythe's perspective...
Perhaps I missed something, but I hope no one has seriously suggested that Borders should go into the Centre as it is now.
I think Borders would be a good fit for the Centre- provided that it is gutted as much as possible, reworked to include the maximum amount of storefront space it can handle, and go back to square one.
For starters, tearing down the connection to the old SBF/Dillard's is a MUST. Eighty-six the 1980s facade inside and out. Then, the northern end of the mall, facing WashAve, should be demolished/reworked to accommodate a two-level Borders with office space on top (however many stories that will work logistically and aesthetically, IMHO).
I think it would still work to have some indoor tenants on the second level connecting Borders to Famous-Barr/Macy's. I'd leave the third and fourth floor possibilities open for discussion- although office space seems like the most logical option.
I realize I'm not saying anything new with regards to the mall's possible rebirth, and I may have missed some of the discussion along the way. But the cynical, negative part of me, for a moment at least, actually envisioned Cohen and/or our local leaders playing the role of snake oil salesmen trying to convince Borders to move into the Centre largely as-is- as Gold's Gym did. Maybe I'm just having a nightmare and I need to wake up...
I think another great site for Borders would be the old Mercantile Library (SE corner of Sixth and Locust)- and I would think that Federated would welcome a tenant directly across the street from the department store that's almost formerly known as Famous-Barr...
The only thing that could save STL Centre without a total rebuild would be for Ikea to take it over.
Can't happen. Wrong colors.Framer wrote:The only thing that could save STL Centre without a total rebuild would be for Ikea to take it over.
Fox 2-
" ST. LOUIS CENTER
It was supposed to be one of America?s premiere urban malls, but St. Louis Center instead has become a monumental failure. The story of the man who said he would try to save it and what the city may do to take it away from him.
It put the grand in grand opening. August 8th, 1985, downtown?s day of hope. But two decades later what was supposed to be a solution has become a problem. Today, St. Louis Center is a hulking no-man?s land, a grim and ghostly interruption of the blossoming urban canyon along Washington Avenue. "We have a significant amount of development happening in Downtown St. Louis that we are very excited about. We are not excited about what is happening currently with St. Louis Center?, said Rodney Crim, from St. Louis Development Corp.
When the center was bought out of foreclosure in august 2004 the city was told the new owner planned to redevelop it. The man who bought it is Barry Cohen, a California based developer who also owns The Jefferson Arms. The mall was quite a bargain. Cohen bought it for $5.4 million; it cost $95 million to build. He had lots of ideas, like turning the skywalk into a restaurant. But a year and a half after buying it the only thing really new is a gym, and some gallery space. St. Louis Center sits more than half empty, with very few shoppers and very little left to shop for. "We have had many conversations with Mr. Cohen since he purchased the St. Louis Center. At this point we do not have a complete final plan for St. Louis Center?.
So now the city is trying a new approach: offering $8 million in tax credits to a developer who comes in with a workable plan for the property. But what about the fact that the property already has a developer? "One of the tools in our tool kit is eminent domain?. When first contacted about this story back in December, Barry Cohen he said he would do an interview after the first of the year, so we set up an appointment. One hour before the interview, his secretary called to say he decided it would be inappropriate for him to comment because he is in negotiations with the city. The city says that's not true
For businesses like J.F. Sanfillipo?s, having a vibrant attraction for tourists as well as locals is critical to continuing the growth underway downtown. "You go to any major city and there is always a place to go shopping. The magnificent mile in Chicago and other places in other cities... it would be great to have some major shopping here?, said Joe Sanfillipo, the restaurant owner.
Even though the city is threatening to take the property so far it has no takers for the millions in tax breaks it is offering to redevelop the mall. Leaving St. Louis Centre, for now, as empty as Barry Cohen's promises. Cohen insists he is negotiating with a potential developer and will make an announcement in March. He won?t say who, or what, they plan to do with the center. "
" ST. LOUIS CENTER
It was supposed to be one of America?s premiere urban malls, but St. Louis Center instead has become a monumental failure. The story of the man who said he would try to save it and what the city may do to take it away from him.
It put the grand in grand opening. August 8th, 1985, downtown?s day of hope. But two decades later what was supposed to be a solution has become a problem. Today, St. Louis Center is a hulking no-man?s land, a grim and ghostly interruption of the blossoming urban canyon along Washington Avenue. "We have a significant amount of development happening in Downtown St. Louis that we are very excited about. We are not excited about what is happening currently with St. Louis Center?, said Rodney Crim, from St. Louis Development Corp.
When the center was bought out of foreclosure in august 2004 the city was told the new owner planned to redevelop it. The man who bought it is Barry Cohen, a California based developer who also owns The Jefferson Arms. The mall was quite a bargain. Cohen bought it for $5.4 million; it cost $95 million to build. He had lots of ideas, like turning the skywalk into a restaurant. But a year and a half after buying it the only thing really new is a gym, and some gallery space. St. Louis Center sits more than half empty, with very few shoppers and very little left to shop for. "We have had many conversations with Mr. Cohen since he purchased the St. Louis Center. At this point we do not have a complete final plan for St. Louis Center?.
So now the city is trying a new approach: offering $8 million in tax credits to a developer who comes in with a workable plan for the property. But what about the fact that the property already has a developer? "One of the tools in our tool kit is eminent domain?. When first contacted about this story back in December, Barry Cohen he said he would do an interview after the first of the year, so we set up an appointment. One hour before the interview, his secretary called to say he decided it would be inappropriate for him to comment because he is in negotiations with the city. The city says that's not true
For businesses like J.F. Sanfillipo?s, having a vibrant attraction for tourists as well as locals is critical to continuing the growth underway downtown. "You go to any major city and there is always a place to go shopping. The magnificent mile in Chicago and other places in other cities... it would be great to have some major shopping here?, said Joe Sanfillipo, the restaurant owner.
Even though the city is threatening to take the property so far it has no takers for the millions in tax breaks it is offering to redevelop the mall. Leaving St. Louis Centre, for now, as empty as Barry Cohen's promises. Cohen insists he is negotiating with a potential developer and will make an announcement in March. He won?t say who, or what, they plan to do with the center. "
Xing wrote:Fox 2-
It put the grand in grand opening. August 8th, 1985, downtown?s day of hope.
For the military history nuts:
August 8th, 1918: German High Commands calls it 'The black day of the German Army." The day they knew they lost WW1.
August 8th, 1944: The Allies launch the final offensive (Operation Totalize) in Normandy to route the Germans. A German general lamented that this was, ironically, the 'second black day of the German Army.'
Common thread? It often seems St. Louis is always fighting a losing battle.
Sorry, if my Fox 2 posts was a bit much. I made the important info bold.
I thought the 'August 8th' was the important bit!
(I love literary/historic thematic threads whether they are pertinent or not!)
Good thing is we finally sense the city's frustration.
BTW, I wonder if Barry Cohen was part of the Team Four Plan? (thread in Urban Living)
(I love literary/historic thematic threads whether they are pertinent or not!)
Good thing is we finally sense the city's frustration.
BTW, I wonder if Barry Cohen was part of the Team Four Plan? (thread in Urban Living)
Interesting. Well at least the money is out there and being offered and moreover, the city is being open now about its willingness to move on the site with Ed if nessisary.
Let hope the announcement is a good one and no messy fight is required.
Let hope the announcement is a good one and no messy fight is required.
- 5,433
Urban Review St. Louis wrote:Look for an announcement this week!
Please tell me it's not Cohen announcing that he'll reveal plans to redevelop the Centre in April! First he said plans would be announced in February, then it became March...
Seriously, I hope the announcement is a real step forward.
- 10K
Urban Review St. Louis wrote:Look for an announcement this week!
Are you being facetious?