Tapatalk

Single Family Homes vs. St. Aloysius

Single Family Homes vs. St. Aloysius

282

PostDec 13, 2005#1

Next Monday the Preservation Board will consider allowing the demolition of the complex known as St. Aloysius, a former Catholic church near The Hill.



Here is a link to the Cultural Resources webpage:

http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/planning/heritage/



The final agenda is not yet ready. The meeting will be held at 4pm.



I've posted my thoughts on my site along with pictures of the structures and a house being built across the street.

http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/archives/000359.php



I've not yet seen a site plan for any drawings for the houses.

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PostDec 13, 2005#2

I'm surprised that they want to tear down the entire complex. I'm not really familiar with the buildings, but the rectory looks like it would be a prime candidate for apartments/condos/lofts.

282

PostDec 13, 2005#3

Yeah, the complex is so interesting and in very good condition. The potential for reuse is quite high. This is not some falling down long-vacant set of buildings.



The bigger issue is how the Preservation Board will completely ignore the vary ordinance they are charged with upholding:

http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/ords/data/ord4832.htm



Here is the relevant section by which such demolition decisions must be made:



SECTION FIVE. Demolition permit - Board decision.



All demolition permit application reviews pursuant to this chapter shall be made by the Director of the Office who shall either approve or disapprove of all such applications based upon the criteria of this ordinance. All appeals from the decision of the Director shall be made to the Preservation Board. Decisions of the Board or Office shall be in writing, shall be mailed to the applicant immediately upon completion and shall indicate the application by the Board or Office of the following criteria, which are listed in order of importance, as the basis for the decision:



A. Redevelopment Plans. Demolitions which would comply with a redevelopment plan previously approved by ordinance or adopted by the Planning and Urban Design Commission shall be approved except in unusual circumstances which shall be expressly noted.



B. Architectural Quality. Structure's architectural merit, uniqueness, and/or historic value shall be evaluated and the structure classified as high merit, merit, qualifying, or noncontributing based upon: Overall style, era, building type, materials, ornamentation, craftsmanship, site planning, and whether it is the work of a significant architect, engineer, or craftsman; and contribution to the streetscape and neighborhood. Demolition of sound high merit structures shall not be approved by the Office. Demolition of merit or qualifying structures shall not be approved except in unusual circumstances which shall be expressly noted.



C. Condition. The Office shall make exterior inspections to determine whether a structure is sound. If a structure or portion thereof proposed to be demolished is obviously not sound, the application for demolition shall be approved except in unusual circumstances which shall be expressly noted. The remaining or salvageable portion(s) of the structure shall be evaluated to determine the extent of reconstruction, rehabilitation or restoration required to obtain a viable structure.



1. Sound structures with apparent potential for adaptive reuse, reuse and or resale shall generally not be approved for demolition unless application of criteria in subsections A, D, F and G, four, six and seven indicates demolition is appropriate.



2. Structurally attached or groups of buildings. The impact of the proposed demolition on any remaining portion(s) of the building will be evaluated. Viability of walls which would be exposed by demolition and the possibility of diminished value resulting from the partial demolition of a building, or of one or more buildings in a group of buildings, will be considered.





D. Neighborhood Effect and Reuse Potential.



1. Neighborhood Potential: Vacant and vandalized buildings on the block face, the present condition of surrounding buildings, and the current level of repair and maintenance of neighboring buildings shall be considered.



2. Reuse Potential: The potential of the structure for renovation and reuse, based on similar cases within the City, and the cost and extent of possible renovation shall be evaluated. Structures located within currently well maintained blocks or blocks undergoing upgrading renovation will generally not be approved for demolition.



3. Economic Hardship: The Office shall consider the economic hardship which may be experienced by the present owner if the application is denied. Such consideration may include, among other things, the estimated cost of demolition, the estimated cost of rehabilitation or reuse, the feasibility of public or private financing, the effect of tax abatement, if applicable, and the potential for economic growth and development n the area.





E. Urban Design. The Office shall evaluate the following urban design factors:



1. The effect of a proposed partial demolition on attached or row buildings.



2. The integrity of the existing block face and whether the proposed demolition will significantly impact the continuity and rhythm of structures within the block.



3. Proposed demolition of buildings with unique or significant character important to a district, street, block or intersection will be evaluated for impact on the present integrity, rhythm, balance and density on the site, block, intersection or district.



4. The elimination uses will be considered; however, the fact that a present and original or historic use of a site does not conform to present zoning or land use requirements in no way shall require that such a nonconforming use to be eliminated.





F. Proposed Subsequent Construction. Notwithstanding the provisions of any ordinance to the contrary, the Office shall evaluate proposed subsequent construction on the site of proposed demolition based upon whether:



1. The applicant has demonstrated site control by ownership or an option contract;



2. The proposed construction would equal or exceed the contribution of the structure to the integrity of the existing streetscape and block face. Proposal for creation of vacant land by demolition(s) in question will be evaluated as to appropriateness on that particular site, within that specific block. Parking lots will be given favorable consideration when directly adjoining/abutting facilities require additional off-street parking;



3. The proposed construction will be architecturally compatible with the existing block face as to building setbacks, scale, articulation and rhythm, overall architectural character and general use of exterior materials or colors;



4. The proposed use complies with current zoning requirements;



5. The proposed new construction would commence within twelve (12) months from the application date.



Based on the above I just don't see how they can approve demolition. But, come Monday, they will. Political pressure will outweigh the fact they are sworn to uphold the ordinances of the city.

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PostDec 14, 2005#4

This is disturbing, the buildings look in good shape, and I could see some unique adaptive reuse.



What recourse does the city have here? Can they block this?



Has this developer been shown what could be done w/ tax credit a-la Abby on the Park in Lafayette Sq.?

282

PostDec 14, 2005#5

Beer City wrote:This is disturbing, the buildings look in good shape, and I could see some unique adaptive reuse.



What recourse does the city have here? Can they block this?



Has this developer been shown what could be done w/ tax credit a-la Abby on the Park in Lafayette Sq.?


Does the city have recourse? Sorry, I had to stop laughing...



The alderman for the ward is in favor of the new homes. The phrase, "single family homes" does wonders in this city for ignorning good planning and in this case, existing preservation ordinances designed to encourage adaptive reused of buildings such as these.



In cases where the alderman has not weighed in on the issue the Preservation Board often denies demolition. Basically as long as the building is "sound" they've denied demolition. Here is a case where the buildings are so much better than sound and in fact create a highly unique urban setting.



They'll vote on Monday but I have no confindence they'll do the right thing. Politics will overrule good judgement.



The neighbors I spoke to all think it is a done deal. They were surprised when I told them of the meeting on Monday. To my knowledge no "public notice" sign is required.



sorry, end of soap box...

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PostDec 14, 2005#6

The school has asbestos and lacks handicapped accessibility. But the bigger issue is that the church has been slowly cracking into two due to settling ground of former clay mines.



St. Al's is the oldest church in all of Southwest City, with nearby St. Ambrose, Epiphany and Holy Innocents all created later, but dwindling the size of this parish. As recent as the postwar era, St. Joan of Arc was the last parish to open but then also diminish St. Al's territory. Now, St. Al's and Holy Innocents are a memory due to Burke's ax, but the stronger parish of St. Ambrose on The Hill now covers what was St. Al's.



Indeed, after all the other parishes opened following this oldest church, I think St. Al's had become the smallest parish, definitely in geography, and likely even in parishioners, within the entire Archdiocese. Myself, I'll miss going to the school for fish fries, as it was the only place in Southwest City without long Lenten lines. But the parish's smallness, albeit a close-knit community then ultimately contributed to its demise.

282

PostDec 14, 2005#7

Well, I'm not trying to argue the church should be reopened as a Catholic parish. My point is we have an ordiance on the books designed to evaluate reuse potential of structures before issuing a demolition permit. Matters of numbers of parishioners and such are totally irrelevant to the criteria before the preservation board.



Walking around the church I saw no exterior evidence of this crack. This might be like the termites at the former St. Hedwig school two blocks from me -- I saw very old damage to some old non-structural items. Yet the archdiosese wanted to raze the structure. They had parishioners convinced the building had to be razed but it was not until we walked through and gaven another perspective did they realize they church had lied to them.



Maybe the church can't be saved. Fine. Let me see the engineering report. Oh wait, I bet one doesn't exist.

399
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PostDec 14, 2005#8

My guess is that it comes down to this:



The best use of the current site as it is now, is either as Church, or rehabbing the current buildings and keeping them intact in another copacity.



But, the most financially lucrative use of the site is to sell the land.



Basically the The Archdiocese is trying to get the most money they can for their obsolete property, and in this sense, you can't really blame them. If I am going to sell my car and the most I can get for it is to sell it to a junk yard that's what I'm going to do.



But the problem is that the Preservation board is supposed to step in in these cases to decide if what is going to be destoyed is worth saving. In this case I think most people would agree that a historic church complex is much more valuble to the neighborhood as a whole then 20 something new houses (which will probably be ugly and out of place in the existing neighborhood.) Any it doesn't even have to stay a religious institution. On Steve's website someone suggested a Bed and Breakfast, and the Guiled Age (I believe) has already turned an old church in Lafayette Square into apartments, so it could be done. My thoughts - Turn the school and administrative buildings into apartments/condos and turn the church into a community theater - The Hill Theater Company or something, perform a lot of Pirandello plays, it'd be great. As for the Gym, I'm not sure, maybe a community center, or even turn it to into apartments/lofts also. I think these ideas, and some of the others that people have mentioned would be much more beneficial for the neighborhood than 20 new homes.



The argument that I'll get now is that no one has come forth with a plan like that, so how do I (we) think it will happen? Well, that is the preservation boards job. That's why they exist. They should be the ones at this meeting telling the Archdiocese "Yes your plan is viable, but it does not justify the destruction of a historic church complex. Come back when you have an adaptive reuse of the existing property." And the area alderman and congressional representative (as well as the mayor) should be scouring for tax credits to make it enticing to a developer to take on a project like this. If we can find tax credits for a piece of junk like The St Louis Centre, surely they are out there for something actually historic and architecturally significant.



So what this really comes down to is that if the preservation board lets this go through, what is their purpose? Why even have one. Just start letting developer do what ever they want.

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PostDec 14, 2005#9

Good post Mcarril, especially the last line. On the other hand, Southslider says the church is cracking in two because of mines. Sounds serious, is that something that can be overcome. If that can be overcome, so much could be done with this property without tearing it down.

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PostDec 14, 2005#10

I agree, if the church is actually cracking in two, there may not be much that can be done, but like Steve said, is there actually an engineers report? It will be interesting to see what kind of evidence is produced at the meeting.

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PostDec 14, 2005#11

True, let us actually uphold our public process of preservation review for once. As required, have the developer demonstrate whether the buildings can be adaptively reused.



Maybe new homes could be built around some of those buildings that could be turned residential. After all, a priest did safely live within the rectory within the last year.

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PostDec 16, 2005#12


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PostDec 16, 2005#13

Urban Review St. Louis wrote:
Beer City wrote:This is disturbing, the buildings look in good shape, and I could see some unique adaptive reuse.



What recourse does the city have here? Can they block this?



Has this developer been shown what could be done w/ tax credit a-la Abby on the Park in Lafayette Sq.?


Does the city have recourse? Sorry, I had to stop laughing...



The alderman for the ward is in favor of the new homes. The phrase, "single family homes" does wonders in this city for ignorning good planning and in this case, existing preservation ordinances designed to encourage adaptive reused of buildings such as these.



In cases where the alderman has not weighed in on the issue the Preservation Board often denies demolition. Basically as long as the building is "sound" they've denied demolition. Here is a case where the buildings are so much better than sound and in fact create a highly unique urban setting.


Sorry, I should have phrased that "Which way is the board leaning?"



Took a look at the proposed infill... and while 2 of the models look ok, the whole development looks pretty uninspired. One building was a fricken' split level, looked terrible, and the infill on the adjoining block looks double awful.



I have a hard time believing that this is the highest and best use when historic ans brownfield tax credits exist. Someone is either not working hard enough, or has not followed any smart development trend over the past couple of years.



As for structural problems, well in less the roof is gone, or complete foundation failure (not evident in the photos) It can be rehabbed. Half of the rehabs in city have some kind of underpinning, "Structural problems" are a convienent crutch for those who have neither the vigilance, nor vision to do things right.

696
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PostDec 16, 2005#14

This is scarey. The samples shown don't reflect the design of the existing house built by the developer, which is one butt ugly house. Sure wish the developers had more on their minds than making bucks, and those powers that be had more sense than to allow something like this to be inflicted on this neighborhood. The only good thing that can be said is that the lots are the typical city size. (Probably a good thing for the developer...he can build more cheap houses, therefore make money under the guise of following proper urban guidelines)

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PostDec 16, 2005#15

That split level model is hideous.

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PostDec 16, 2005#16

DeBaliviere wrote:That split level model is hideous.



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PostDec 16, 2005#17

The split level, stucco house, the existing infill house, and to a lesser degree the 2nd and 4th houses are all hideous. The only one that is OK is the first one.

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PostDec 17, 2005#18

I completely agree, MattnSTL and DeBaliviere. The existing infill kind of looks like the third house (only worse), which is by far the worst of all of them and looks like 70's suburban tract housing. The infill house is hideous. It looks like it was hit by a tornado and the damage was covered with white siding by someone who opted to go cheap rather than make proper repairs. This is one tiny step up from mobile homes.

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PostDec 17, 2005#19

Ok, this is the first time I have really taken the time to look at everything carefully. That split level is one of the ugliest houses I have ever seen. No way we can lose these handsome buildings to that type of building. It is disgraceful. I wouldn't allow that house to go up anywhere. It blows my mind that something like this can even be considered.

282

PostDec 17, 2005#20

Expat wrote:Ok, this is the first time I have really taken the time to look at everything carefully. That split level is one of the ugliest houses I have ever seen. No way we can lose these handsome buildings to that type of building. It is disgraceful. I wouldn't allow that house to go up anywhere. It blows my mind that something like this can even be considered.


The more I look into the whole thing the worse it gets. The house shown in the photograph from the preservation board agenda (and on my site) is occupied by a tenant while it is for sale. This was an example where they torn down an insignificant frame house and subdivided the parcel into two building sites. The 2nd site is still vacant. So much for demand.



Before the Preservation Board grants the demolition permit they should demand proof this developer can do a nearly $5 million dollar project. Do they have the money to pull this off? They've not done any marketing at all.



I'm afraid after the buildings are razed we're going to be stuck with vacant land for years, maybe with a house or two built every year.

2,687
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PostDec 17, 2005#21

Why do they keep building those ugly homes? They're horrible! Don't they have any taste for aesthetic? This whole plan is too bad. The buildings currently there, look to be prime candidates for creative reuse.

696
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PostDec 17, 2005#22

Somebody at city hall better wake up pretty soon. How do you kill a city? You trash it, like the city has been trashed for decades by it's so called leadership. Now that it's coming alive, for some strange reason the leadership allows new trash to be built (and I would classify those vinyl sided, brick front structures as "trash", too). Residents need to organize, go to city hall and demand that such atrocities be halted. I'm not a city resident, but were I, I'd get in contact with like-minded friends, preservationists (Landmarks), architects, urbanites and every one I could recruit and do something about this kind of thing. Standing by and doing nothing but grumble about it won't solve a thing, and in the long run the city loses again. I'm amazed city hall doesn't have the forsight to see this.

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PostDec 17, 2005#23

I think this may be the worst of the projects I've seen. The only place I'd ever want to see these homes built is on the swamps of East St. Louis, hoping that after just a few months of completing the construction, the earth would swallow them whole.

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PostDec 18, 2005#24

Remember: Any citizen of the City of St. Louis has the right to go the Preservation Board meeting Monday and testify. Though this is not my neighborhood, I will be there. Let's get tons of people there to say that we won't stand for the preservation ordinaces to be ignored and we won't stand for such shoddy development.



I'll see those of you that care Monday at the hearing.

PostDec 18, 2005#25

Marmar wrote:Somebody at city hall better wake up pretty soon. How do you kill a city? You trash it, like the city has been trashed for decades by it's so called leadership. Now that it's coming alive, for some strange reason the leadership allows new trash to be built (and I would classify those vinyl sided, brick front structures as "trash", too). Residents need to organize, go to city hall and demand that such atrocities be halted. I'm not a city resident, but were I, I'd get in contact with like-minded friends, preservationists (Landmarks), architects, urbanites and every one I could recruit and do something about this kind of thing. Standing by and doing nothing but grumble about it won't solve a thing, and in the long run the city loses again. I'm amazed city hall doesn't have the forsight to see this.


If you think that politicians in this city work for its best interest then you must think again. Until these little fiefdoms are dismantled then none of them (not even Franky the Saint) will look beyond their own best interest (which includes rubber stamping a colleague's pet project so they will rubber stamp yours).



Marmar, you get it -- thank you. Until more voices like yours are heard this city will continue to be dismantled and we will lose that which makes us special. This may all sound cynical but I have been on the front lines of these battles for years. We win some, we lose some. The good news is the more the City continues to succeed the easier and fewer battles we will have. What it takes is for citizens to speak up and refuse to allow someone's whim to destroy our substance.

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