So I was kinda bored the other day and decided to make a fantasy map of Metrolink. I should note that while I copied many of the preferred routes from EWGateway's old MTIA studies, I've taken a lot of liberties with respect to the existing system and where lines go. I've created a new thread for this so as not to pollute the Metrolink Expansion thread.
My concept of Metrolink is it serves as a mini-metro and is represented as the think colored lines: red, green, purple, yellow, black. Metrolink is supplemented by streetcar lines represented by thinner brown lines. Note, however, that the streetcar lines are incomplete not fully thought out.
Lastly, the green line terminates at the central west end station so as to limit the stretch between Grand and Union Station to only 4 lines.
Can the administrators make this 600 x 800 or larger on this forum for easier thumbnail viewing as if like a picture because my computer cannot download or view that image
For the most part, this map matches many of the lines identified here. However, the most noticeable differences are within downtown, the southside (Soulard-Brewery-Dutchtown) and heading southwest (Dogtown-Maplewood-Webster-Kirkwood).
Mill204, for the southside and southwest, how do you propose getting through Dogtown and Dutchtown as shown on narrow streets, such as Clayton and McCausland through Dogtown, or Meramec between Broadway and Gustine through Dutchtown? If the answer is subways, we'd go broke just building a few miles.
And what the heck is going on in Downtown? You have the existing tunnel under Washington being part of one line (shown as red), yet the existing tunnel under 8th Street (shown as blue) being part of another? I wouldn't want to see the cost or service disruption necessary to rebuild the tunnels at 8th and Washington into two. Besides, since at the same below-grade depths now, would "red" and "blue" trains just cross paths at 8th and Washington in new tunnels?
Build a line along 270 to connect ring suburbs with each other with little deviations for job centers Boeing, Earth City, Riverport, Westport, City Place (Creve Coeur), Des Peres/Manchester area, Downtown Kirkwood?, Whatever south county
Build rail line similar to Metra in Chicago which runs for just morning/evening rush hours from outer (outside of 270) suburbs to Clayton, CWE, and Downtown
Suburbs: Pacific/Eureka, Wildwood, Arnold (Jeffco), Chesterfield, St. Charles CO., Hazelwood, Florissant, Black Jack, Spanish Lake, Alton
I like thinking BIG, and it's fun to think of what a system could look like. But realistically, this is a post on "fantasies."
Each quarter-cent increase in sales taxes with the City and County only raises about $50 million a year. And with Metro facing a deficit as early as next year, one quarter-cent is now just needed to sustain operations and preserve the commited, aging system. Another quarter-cent could provide incremental MetroLink expansion, but not if designed as subways. At-grade in-street alignments run about $20-30 million a mile. Elevated is about $50-90 million a mile. Subway is about $100-300 million a mile.
East-West Gateway made controversial headlines back in 2000 when its board effectively adopted a long-term vision of six extensions following Cross County (Metro South, Metro North, Daniel Boone, Northside, Southside, NW Connector) that stayed for the most part within I-270. Today, being even more realistic, Metro's board is moving towards a long-term vision of just four extensions (Daniel Boone, Southside, Northside, and Metro North). Most importantly, each of these revised priorities has been shortened significantly, except Daniel Boone remaining Clayton to Westport, but without the NW Connector to North City. Southside would be to just Bayless, instead of Butler Hill (and Metro South appears scrapped). Northside would be to just near Goodfellow, instead of Flo Valley CC. And Metro North would head from North Hanley, instead of Clayton, upto Florissant, with possible connection via Metro North to Flo Valley CC, instead of via Northside.
In 1994, on the heels of the first MetroLink line opening, voters in the City and County passed a quarter-cent sales tax that is now dedicated to retiring bonds for Cross County construction. In 1997, however, voters in the County did not pass an additional quarter-cent, and many blame the lack of proponents sharing what the realistic expectations were for expansion. It's common sense that voters want to know how far their dollar will go and how soon they'll see results in order to back a tax increase.
Presently, the state has enabled City and County voters to pass upto a full cent sales tax. Granted, Metro only needs to pass the quarter-cent in the County (it already passed, but was never collected in the City) in order to secure its financial future. However, since such levy would only really preserve our committed system of existing MetroLink (including Cross County) and MetroBus routes, I doubt County voters would vote for a tax increase that wouldn't provide for any additional MetroLink expansion. But since such expansion is now only viable with a half-cent levy to be considered by City and County voters, you have to devise an expansion plan for voters that lays out total cost, timeframe for completion, and politically shows lines that will have public support.
Thus, it looks like Metro is exploring ways to head north, south and west, in four shorter extensions, so as to get votes across the City and County, yet not go broke in the process with too grandiose, or unrealistic, expectations.
It may be grandoise but people from the north, south, and west all need to get to Downtown and Clayton and likewise for city residents to get to Airport industrial east (former Kinloch), Earth City, & Westport. Remember more people leave the City for jobs in the County than County people go to the City for jobs.
^The idea of commuter rail similar to Chicago's Metra contradicts your very point that many folks don't work in the City. Commuter rail works when you have a very dense employment center with extremely high job concentration. With only about 90,000 jobs, and that's including employment a far walk from existing stations, like Purina or AG Edwards, Downtown St. Louis can serve as a hub for regional light-rail, but it has nowhere near the employment concentration to be the end-destination of a morning inbound and evening outbound commuter rail system.
Indeed, MetroLink lines are planned to not just link suburban residents with downtown destinations, but also help urban residents reach more suburban jobs more quickly via transit. Our system has strong ridership in both directions throughout the day, especially west of the Mississippi because of how it helps both reverse and traditional commuters reach multiple destinations outside of Downtown, such as direct access to BJC, UMSL, Lambert and many bus transfer points with faster reverse commutes for transit-dependents living in the urban core but traveling to outlying jobs.
southslider wrote:I like thinking BIG, and it's fun to think of what a system could look like. But realistically, this is a post on "fantasies."
Each quarter-cent increase in sales taxes with the City and County only raises about $50 million a year. And with Metro facing a deficit as early as next year, one quarter-cent is now just needed to sustain operations and preserve the commited, aging system. Another quarter-cent could provide incremental MetroLink expansion, but not if designed as subways. At-grade in-street alignments run about $20-30 million a mile. Elevated is about $50-90 million a mile. Subway is about $100-300 million a mile.
East-West Gateway made controversial headlines back in 2000 when its board effectively adopted a long-term vision of six extensions following Cross County (Metro South, Metro North, Daniel Boone, Northside, Southside, NW Connector) that stayed for the most part within I-270. Today, being even more realistic, Metro's board is moving towards a long-term vision of just four extensions (Daniel Boone, Southside, Northside, and Metro North). Most importantly, each of these revised priorities has been shortened significantly, except Daniel Boone remaining Clayton to Westport, but without the NW Connector to North City. Southside would be to just Bayless, instead of Butler Hill (and Metro South appears scrapped). Northside would be to just near Goodfellow, instead of Flo Valley CC. And Metro North would head from North Hanley, instead of Clayton, upto Florissant, with possible connection via Metro North to Flo Valley CC, instead of via Northside.
In 1994, on the heels of the first MetroLink line opening, voters in the City and County passed a quarter-cent sales tax that is now dedicated to retiring bonds for Cross County construction. In 1997, however, voters in the County did not pass an additional quarter-cent, and many blame the lack of proponents sharing what the realistic expectations were for expansion. It's common sense that voters want to know how far their dollar will go and how soon they'll see results in order to back a tax increase.
Presently, the state has enabled City and County voters to pass upto a full cent sales tax. Granted, Metro only needs to pass the quarter-cent in the County (it already passed, but was never collected in the City) in order to secure its financial future. However, since such levy would only really preserve our committed system of existing MetroLink (including Cross County) and MetroBus routes, I doubt County voters would vote for a tax increase that wouldn't provide for any additional MetroLink expansion. But since such expansion is now only viable with a half-cent levy to be considered by City and County voters, you have to devise an expansion plan for voters that lays out total cost, timeframe for completion, and politically shows lines that will have public support.
Thus, it looks like Metro is exploring ways to head north, south and west, in four shorter extensions, so as to get votes across the City and County, yet not go broke in the process with too grandiose, or unrealistic, expectations.
I think the fantasy is broken when you realize what state St. Louis is in, and how much dinero you really have to work with.
As long as you get a good deal made with the unions, therefore eliminating mid-construction castastrophies due to lazieness and poor management. Also, you'd have to present the plan and go about it a little more publically, I know it seems tedious and that you might think this sounds stupid, but for the most part---many people are stupid...if they were smart there'd be 795k people on this forum all informed and constantly updated to what was going up and what was coming down, and inserting their feedback etc.
The metro link expansion, was for the most part, too private---they had the plans drawn up---then were silent for a year, most people forgot, then they spring it up again---catch people off guard---I think they actually did some of this in the week leading up to Tax day which isn't smart because people aren't really going to focus nor take anything serious during the stressful week---let alone make a intelligent opinion on a plan that would probably increase their stress and debt come next tax time....
The forums need to be made, the initiatives need to be put on the ballots, people need to walk into Target or...Wal-Mart, or Walgreen's or Schnuck's and see a representative from the planning committee and shake their hand, and actually read or listen to the plan and give the project some thought---what I'm saying here, we need some grassroot door-to-door education program that will, and will do it in a way that is polite but also serious enough to get people off their asses, and contribute to the plan that would no doubt make their home a better, more attractive place to live in.
You cant' just spring up a plan on the populous, and say "sorry, we gotta knock down your planet for the new intergalactic highway..."--D-Adams.
Also, what's up with the connection to Chesterfield? Why not Kirkwood? Why not Webster? Just lay the train right up Big Bend through Webster, to Lockwood, to Adams, through Kirkwood, up Ballas, hit the major Hospitals (Missouri Baptist, St. Johns, DePaul) and you could literally turn on Olive where Ballas ends and take Olive west to Chesterfield, I mean, Olive's always under construction---at least the last 9 year's I've had to travel the god-forsaken traffic trap.
FauxNews wrote:Also, what's up with the connection to Chesterfield?
I've always wondered the purpose of a line to Chesterfield when there isn't a plan for one to more densely populated suburbs closer to the city. Living near Chesterfield, I can't imagine that the people living here would use the MetroLink very often. Sure, it'd be nice to have for me until I get out of the suburbs (well before a line to Chesterfield comes to fruition), but in the interests of the area as a whole, this should be prioritized well below several other parts of the region.
I think that's the major oversight of most St. Louisans. People in Chesterfield don't use public transportation, so why run a line out there? So people can ride it down to baseball games?
The lines need to service communities (inner ring) that will use public transport first. We've got to take care of North and South side first.
Also the only real place of interest besides the mall out there, is the Blues practice rink (hockey? we have a hockey team?), and that's along that flood plain stretch, and if you went that far, you'd might as well bring it to spirit of st. louis, and if you've brought it that far, you'd might as well bring it to old town st. charles....well, there's nothing much past st. charles.
FauxNews wrote:Also the only real place of interest besides the mall out there, is the Blues practice rink (hockey? we have a hockey team?), and that's along that flood plain stretch, and if you went that far, you'd might as well bring it to spirit of st. louis, and if you've brought it that far, you'd might as well bring it to old town st. charles....well, there's nothing much past st. charles.
Actually the Blues practice at the Mills now so they don't even have that anymore lol.
ouch....well, they do have that BBQ place, with the big Pig on top, and a metro link ride to the County Airshow would be nice, but I hate to generalize here---the people in Chesterfield would be just as dedicated against the expansion of the metrolink through their territory as the people in La--de--due. Though, I'm sure the other 96% of the non-100k income earners living in Chesterfield would greatly appreciate such an addition.
HEY CHESTERFIELD VALLEY IS HOME TO THE WORLDS LARGEST STRIP MALL!!! that is a claim to fame! lol - if you were going to chesterfield with metro I would think a better destination would be to end at the mall - and service all the low desnity office buildings along 40 (dozens of 3- 6 story genertic office complexes). The biggest thing is lack of density and reliance on cars. The furthest the Metro system should think about going west now is Westport. With Pujols' resturant there now - it will again be a destination.
^ Maybe I am wrong, but I think Fauxnews could use a bit of help. First "that BBQ place, with the big Pig on top" is The Smoke House, a very tasty meat market. It has been yuppie-fied since the flood, but the meat is always high quality and i can remember before the flood how it was more like a country market. Lots of great memories.
Second, I think you are flat wrong about folks in Chesterfield and Ladue. Even if the residents would only use the system for major events (Cards, Rams, Blues, Fair STL) I still the support would be there. I mean ask folks from west county about Metrolink and it seems like the first comment/ complaint is that 40 doesn't have a line running out there along side. Folks closer in, like those who live in Ladue, might even use it for work if it offered access to Clayton and Downtown.
If there is a flaw, it is not in whether folks in that area support Metrolink (which many do) the flaw is in how much they use it. They wouldn't use it often enough, largely because neither downtown or Clayton have high enough percentages of office jobs to make them real magnets to support a commuter rail line. Therefor, any line out that direction would no simply loose money, but it would be flushing it away. I think folks in Ladue and Chesterfield support metrolink, they just wouldn't ride it enough to justify running it out there.
Maybe before you bash people just because of where they live, you should take a long look in the miror. Open minded my ....
^I dunno, I think his predictions are spot on. Usage of a metro line out to Chesterfield restricted only to big events is not nearly enough ridership to justify the massive costs. If people choose to move out to sprawlwsville, they should live with their decision and drive their cars. We can only afford to heavily subsudize one form of tranport for these poeple, and right now that's the extensive highway system...
Second, I think you are flat wrong about folks in Chesterfield and Ladue. Even if the residents would only use the system for major events (Cards, Rams, Blues, Fair STL) I still the support would be there. I mean ask folks from west county about Metrolink and it seems like the first comment/ complaint is that 40 doesn't have a line running out there along side. Folks closer in, like those who live in Ladue, might even use it for work if it offered access to Clayton and Downtown.
If there is a flaw, it is not in whether folks in that area support Metrolink (which many do) the flaw is in how much they use it. They wouldn't use it often enough, largely because neither downtown or Clayton have high enough percentages of office jobs to make them real magnets to support a commuter rail line. Therefor, any line out that direction would no simply loose money, but it would be flushing it away. I think folks in Ladue and Chesterfield support metrolink, they just wouldn't ride it enough to justify running it out there.
Maybe before you bash people just because of where they live, you should take a long look in the miror. Open minded my ....
Very well put, I've wanted to address this for months now...i've even writen a few drafts but never posted them because i couln't find the correct wording. One of the main themes on this message board is that of open mindedness and getting rid of the overly conservative nature that makes up much of the midwest.
First: Don't in any way put me in a spot where I can be labeled "conservative", if I read you correctly, it sounded like you were hinting at that nasty, nasty label...never. It is abomination in my mind.
Second: (wait, what did I write): Oh for pete's sake I wrote that at 10 in the morning, if I really hurt your feelings then I'm sorry, really. (Ladue I'm not, I'll never like you, too many memories). Chesterfield, well, look I might even be thinking of Creve Cour, but it just seems like there's nothing there---except big houses (new houses) and flood plain, and its easy to take shots at.
But hey, I could spend all day taking shots at Kirkwood, Manchester, Webster, any place in west county...my main sense of "meaness" and "hatefullness" comes from youthful atheletic hatred of Marquette and such, and well, besides the tough relationships sports creates, its also not going to add to the salad if you have to endure a 40 minute bus ride in rush hour traffic.
Even today, I can't stand the traffic driving out there, until you get into the flood plain (thats' a lovely overpass you got there).
Anyway, enough of that humility stuff...
Chesterfield does have the Amenie's Carpet Mosque out there---that's a sure draw for rider's on a metro link ride.
But in all seriousness, I'm sure businessmen/woman would appreciate a way to get to their meetings downtown etc by way of the metro, It'd be a great source of bringing folks out to (like you said') the earth city like corporate HQs out there....
Don't in any way put me in a spot where I can be labeled "conservative", if I read you correctly, it sounded like you were hinting at that nasty, nasty label...never. It is abomination in my mind.
I was actually making a subtle dig at those who call themselves liberals, or enlightened, or whatever term you want to use (noting the irony of the enlightened stereotyping and bashing based on where one lives). Either way, I do consider myself a conservative and so, if I were calling you that it would be not but a compliment from me.
