honestly to the general public I really don't think it matters if its a chain or not. But downtown so far isn't drawing the general public. At least to me, it seems like all the new residents are fairly more educated than the average person and that's why all the purchasing conscience comes in. When "dumber" people start moving in, dumber companies will follow.

Alex Ihnen wrote:For the sake of discussion, why is it accepted that chain stores downtown do not work? As some say, "they've been tried" but then so has every other conceivable concept. The assumption at work seems to be that only unique stores, not available elsewhere will draw people downtown to work/live/play. But what if downtown residents want to shop at Old Navy and have a beer a Dave and Busters? And what's the converse? Are suburbanites drawn to chain stores. I mean, are there strip malls in the County where someone is saying, "don't put in a family-owned deli, we've tried that. What we need is an Applebee's."

I'd applaud you, but for some reason the applause smilie thingy isn't working. So I'll give you one of these instead.

I want downtown to have unique businesses and a unique feel as much as anyone here. However, I think we also need chains to some extent to draw more people into our downtown, and I think that a healthy mix of national chains and unique stores or restaurants that cannot be found anywhere else is a good thing and a sign of a downtown moving in the right direction.

It's been awhile since I've been to downtown Indianapolis, but there is a downtown that has plenty of chains, yet there's no dearth of locally-owned establishments as well. I can't imagine that Indy residents would've reacted negatively to Gameworks, or Jillian's, or Borders, but I wasn't around Indy when those businesses chose to locate in downtown. Keep in mind also that Indy has Circle Centre, a mall which has been successful where St. Louis Centre wasn't for a variety of reasons. I'm not saying that St. Louis is worse off because our downtown mall failed, not by a long shot. However, I don't think that Circle Centre, or the stores and restaurants located within, are detrimental to downtown Indianapolis in any way. Someone more familiar with the city than me might argue legitimately that the preponderance of chains has somehow "shut out" more locals from making a go of it in downtown, but that would be an assumption with a rather high burden of proof, I think. Downtown Indy looks just fine in my opinion.

Alex, I also like your point about the suburbs. It's easy to dismiss suburban residents as simpletons that want nothing more than an Applebee's or a Walmart within a 10-minute drive of their vinyl-sided palaces, but I know of plenty of great local establishments in just about every corner of St. Louis County. Strip malls may be nothing to look at, but I've had some good meals in unique restaurants that happened to be located in strip malls. I've even heard that some suburbanites like them as well, even better than Applebee's, so imagine that.

So as much as I want to see a downtown filled with unique dining and retail options, I don't think we need to send TGI Friday's or The Old Spaghetti Factory packing, or to tell Dave & Busters or Old Navy that they're not welcome. Is that what some people really want? That's fine, I suppose, but I think that limits downtown's growth and potential, and I think there's room for the indies and chains alike in our downtown.

Suburbanites have chain stores. In the suburbs. That's why chain stores in the city, where suburbanites are scared to go, is a bad idea.
Forget that demographic. Let them have their flood plain paradise.

Alex Ihnen wrote:

Nerfdude wrote:Suburbanites have chain stores. In the suburbs. That's why chain stores in the city, where suburbanites are scared to go, is a bad idea.
Forget that demographic. Let them have their flood plain paradise.

This is what I don't understand: suburbs = chain stores, the city = small independent stores. My question is why? I have some opinions on the matter, but what do others think?

[I'll see if I can split this off into another thread]

I don't get it either. The chains that are in the city seem to be doing quite well in most cases. And there are small independent businesses in St. Louis County and beyond that are thriving as well. I'm not going to pretend that I have never thrown out any stereotypes about suburban living vs. city living, but I don't understand why some people assume that all suburbanites should be written off simply because chains outnumber independent businesses in some communities and neighborhoods.

I also don't get the assumption that every suburbanite hates the city and never leaves their corner of the world. Just to name a few, I would say that forum users like DeBaliviere, Juice, Moorlander, and Joe Bonwich blow that stereotype out of the water. I used to live in the suburbs, and somehow I managed to spend a lot of free time in the city even when I had to drive about 10 miles to get to it. Not everyone in Chesterfield or Oakville likes the taste of Anti-St. Louis Haterade.

I think it's quite short-sighted to suggest that we shouldn't attempt to attract certain businesses downtown simply because they are chains and they might attract people to downtown that don't currently visit to dine or shop for whatever reason. It doesn't seem like a way to build critical mass, and it doesn't seem like a way to fill all of those vacant storefronts. And despite all of the monumental progress that has been made in downtown St. Louis, it's painfully obvious that there are still many vacant storefronts. It's only my opinion, of course, but I believe a rising tide raises all ships. The addition of more chain stores and restaurants can only help to bring more people to downtown, which will make it more attractive for independent retailers and restaurants to consider a downtown location, as they too will benefit from the increased pedestrian traffic and expanded hours of activity.

We can kid around on this forum about not wanting businesses downtown that are magnets for fat hoosiers or other types of undesirables, but if we choose to limit downtown to being nothing more than a playground for the beautiful people and the cool kids, we will really limit its potential.

Danny wrote:

zink wrote:

ttricamo wrote:Amen! I say cram in as many chains as we can handle. Get'em all downtown ASAP!

Isnt that what kind of contributed to the downfall of STL Centre in the first place? Everyone will just flock to the same chain, except which ever one is "newer" or "bigger"

I've been reading here for a good number of months and never really felt compelled to write anything until now. I have to say I am in total agreement with zink. Downtown can continue it's comeback only by striving to make itself more and more unique. Throwing chains together in hopes of attracting people from the County has been tried and failed. Chains can be good as long as they complement the balance of downtown as a mixed use neighborhood, serving the demands of residents and office workers that currently aren't being served. For this reason, attracting "chainlets" like Schnucks, an AMC, and maybe a True Value hardware can be huge positives for the area. Throwing an Old Navy or D&B into the mix right now, when the demand really isn't there for current downtown residents, would greatly disturb the balance of downtown in my opinion. Keep it unique. Keep it something you can't get anywhere else in the area. Then you've got something.

Who said anything about attracting suburbanites? How would haveing a D&B or Target make it less unique?

I don't see a problem with chain stores in a downtown environment. More business is good. It attracts more people. Maybe even encourage suburbanites to move to the city.

I think people have a problem with chain stores because in a suburban environment they typically mean building on huge swaths of land. They build huge, long, one-story buildings with gigantic parking lots. Chain stores are in malls and new construction. In an urban environment, they wouldn't be able to do that. They have to conform to an existing building and city infrastructure.

On top of that, St. Louis's downtown just doesn't have enough people to use a lot of chain stores.

Forget about attracting people from the suburbs for the moment, I think city residents are forgotten in the mix.

There are many residents who want what the suburbs have in terms of retail. As stated above, I bet one thing that makes the city less attractive to a lot of people is a perceived lack of retail...or easy places to buy things. For better or worse our buying habits have changed and one-stop shopping seems to be the thing.

Southwest city I think is a perfect example of an undeserved market.

As for the uniqueness of Downtown, I think by virtue of it's architecture, locations, etc. it is unique. I don't see how bringing in a chain and making them conform to urban standards would make DT any less unique.

I'm all for unique, but if downtown makes itself too "unique" and doesn't appeal to a wide enough audience, how are shop owners going to pay the bills. I think balance between unique and wider appeal is the thing DT should strive for.

It is absolutely illogical to think downtown, or the city for that matter, would totally revitalize without chain stores.

I would understand if someone was adamantly opposed to, say, Wash Ave having a chain store. In other words, certain enclaves of the city would be better served by small locally owned businesses.

However, as a whole, Downtown will need chain stores in order to expand, diversify, and refine it's retail environment; it's capitalist economics 101. I've argued this point many times before - only having "cool kid" stores would out price downtown for all of the cool kids.

St. Louis City Centre seems to be the prime location for some clothing chains and perhaps a Crate and Barrel, in the opinion of this beautiful person. At the very least, I would love to see our downtown have enough density to begin housing chain stores independent of a "mall".

And finally, to rain on some elitest parades around here:

Link to NYC and Brooklyn's Applebees - http://maps.google.com/maps?q=applebees ... 20757&z=12

The NYC Red Lobster - http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 10378&z=13

The NYC Olive Gardens - http://maps.google.com/maps?near=New+Yo ... 27595&z=15

Enjoy!

Alex Ihnen wrote:FYI - discussion has been split.

Thanks for splitting that Alex.

By the way I would kill for downtown to have its own Lowe's or home depot, or a crate and barrel. I may love living in the city, but I also love buying from big box and other such chain stores. The thing is, the area needs to have choice. If there is no local option downtown for some things it makes it harder for many people to live down here. In fact I think the goal is to make it possible to live downtown without having a car and I think we are going to have to embrace some chain retail to make that a very realistic option for most people.

Also downtown seems to expensive in many ways from my perspective. I think we need an influx of low priced dining.

I would actually kill for a downtown Uncle Bill's Pancake House and Steak and Shake. They are both my late night standbys.

Hmm. My problem with chain stores has to do with their size. Smaller stores (which tend to be locally owned), function better in and are more conducive to the pedestrian environment. They enable a denser grouping of uses, allowing pedestrians to get their destinations more quickly. Smaller stores are also willing to live without dedicated parking, because they're able to survive off of on-street parking and pedestrian traffic. Big chain stores tend to rely on customers visiting by vehicle, so I'm sure they would--especially in a city like St. Louis--require an adjacent parking structure.

Not to say that big stores can't function in an urban environment. They definitely can and have for a long time. But I'd prefer a block of diverse local stores over a couple big chains.

Isn't this sort of a chicken-and-egg problem?
When the chain stores and restaurants believe there's sufficient demand in downtown St. Louis to justify an investment there, they'll show up (and they'll put up with the parking and architectural constraints just like they do lots of other places). Until then, they won't (except, I'd note, for Macy's, one of the biggest chains there is).
It's not like Crate & Barrel doesn't know downtown St. Louis exists. Nor is the city or anyone else "keeping them out." It's just that they don't feel it's a solid enough investment yet. Big chain retailers are very conservative, and they follow the crowd. That's why they all pile into the same two square miles in Brentwood, Des Peres and Chesterfield.
What will make them feel comfortable downtown? Marketing from the Partnership and downtown boosters, yes. But more importantly, seeing smaller (yes, local and independent) retailers making it. That's how you prove the market. Unfortunately, the chains may well kill off some of those independent retailers, but the good ones will survive, and even benefit from the increased foot traffic. This is the free market, right?
Where I think you risk trouble is in giving incentives to big chain retailers to locate downtown (a la Schnucks, some would say). But that's another story.

I think that this is a very good discussion and one I am surprised that we have not yet had. I guess that that may be a testament to downtown improvement (that we would think that chains would consider to deign us with their presence ). Personally, I am OK with them as I think that they add to the variety that we have downtown, if not the "uniqueness". I think that there has to be a balance, and we saw the effect that the chain (sort of) coffee shop/deli (Culinaria) had on some other downtown businesses; we would not want a sprawling strip mall of chain restaurants taking all of the business away from our locally-owned establishments. However, if we are saying that local restaurants would not survive if chains are introduced, that is more an indictment of us, the residents, than the chains; that would indicate that we prefer cheap, processed, synthetically-flavored food over... "real" food. I think that downtown should appeal to everyone in some form; that is what is going to make us a destination. We should keep it balanced (as far as offering credits to chains goes) and stick to strict urban planning requirements (no sea of parking surrounding a Wal-Mart). As to the specific ideas put forth, Dave & Busters, Crate & Barrel, etc., I don't really care about/for any of them, but if they bring variety, then bring them on!

I'm not totally opposed to chains downtown in every shape and form. I stand by that they should never replace the unique edge that downtown has, but I think there is certainly a place for them as the market demands and as they improve the quality of life for current and prospectve residents. Things like a Target, hardware store, and movie theater could be huge for catalyzing community growth and stimulating confidence in other tenants. I really doubt a D&B has that same effect. Can you imagine anybody really basing their decision to re-locate off of the proximity to a D&B when there are superior entertainment venues already downtown? I can't. Meanwhile downtown would likely have to pay an arm and a leg in incentives right now to pull in a glut of chain retail or a D&B, that IMO would not necessarily even be successful. I can however see a boom from snagging a downtown Target or the like when people are able to feel the energy of a unique downtown mixed with the convenience of having all your needs available within walking distance. Then again, maybe I'm just biased against Dave and Buster's since I've never won any of their cool prizes.

As much as I love the STL, that is unfortunately too true.

Alex Ihnen wrote:

Danny wrote:I stand by that they should never replace the unique edge that downtown has...

I agree with much of what you said, but I'll add that to newcomers, visitors and some residents, the primary thing that is "unique" about downtown is the incredible number of vacant storefronts and dead blocks.

Exactly. That's the hard truth. There's no doubt that Downtown St. Louis has come a very long way in the last decade, but unfortunately, there are still many vacant storefronts.

I'm merely speculating here, and I realize that downtown is still a work in progress, but I wonder how much of that void has to do with inflated rent and lease rates. Just as one example, I'm thinking of the Lion's Choice that just closed in Kiener Plaza several months ago. I went there several times- even at off-peak times- and it wasn't exactly hurting for business. And Lion's Choice locations generally do pretty well regardless of where they're located in the region, so why was the plug pulled on this particular location?

On the other hand, I realize some businesses could not make it in downtown without some sort of sweetheart deal in place, so I'm not really sure what the answer is.

For another example, look at properties the Roberts Brothers own. I'm ecstatic that they had the cojones to build Roberts Tower even as the downtown housing market was leveling off and the economy was plummeting, but why can't they ever get a decent ground floor tenant in the buildings they own? That may not be an issue of rent/lease rates as much as management. For as many great things as they do for St. Louis, they also do a lot of things I don't get whatsoever.

TimeForGuinness wrote:I'd love to have my city tax dollars stay in the city. Why downtown doesn't have a garment district is baffling...forget D&B and movie theaters...what about a Gap, Banana Republic, Urban Outfitters, J. Crew, Kate Spade, Gucci, Armani, American Apparel, etc, etc, etc. I love the individual homegrown boutiques, but these chains are essential for St. Louisians and our visitors.

I don't disagree with you. I think some of the chains you mentioned (The Gap, Urban Outfitters, etc.) would work in downtown. However, I think the high-end retailers like Kate Spade, Gucci, etc. would either wind up in a mall like Plaza Frontenac or the Saint Louis Galleria if not an open-air environment like Boulevard St. Louis. I'm thinking of Atlanta again- these are the kinds of places you'd see in Buckhead, not downtown Atlanta. That said, if these places couldn't be downtown, I wish there could be some way to accommodate them in the Central West End. Sometimes I wish Maryland Plaza had a little more room, or made better use of the space that is has. Of course, I suppose I'm a little biased against a couple of the existing tenants, as I've been to Scape and Crepes Etc., and I was pretty underwhelmed by both of them.