I spent some time in these two cities recently and have some observations:



1) Cincy's downtown makes ours look grand and beautiful. They have a difficult road in remaking their city center.



2) On the other hand, Louisville seems to be following the foot steps of other southern cities like Atlanta, Charlotte and Nashville in becoming a bit of a boom town. Cranes everywhere!



3) St. Louis' DT is much bigger area-wise than these two which means our rebirth will obviously take longer. Nonetheless, it can happen fast, no doubt. We have nothing to be ashamed of.

sirshankalot wrote:1) Cincy's downtown makes ours look grand and beautiful. They have a difficult road in remaking their city center.

I'm not sure I agree - I've found downtown Cincy to be quite nice. They still have some good shopping and restaurants and lots of historic architecture. There are some newer cultural attractions there, and the sports facilities are very nice. I think there's also a new high rise office building under construction near the riverfront. Of course, they also have their own version of the depressed section (ugh).



I haven't been there in a couple of years but will be there this weekend, so I'll pay a little closer attention.

Actually, I was just in downtown Cincinnati this past weekend for the Flying Pig Marathon; a portion of the course is run downtown and then, as you might guess, the course ends in downtown. Now I know that I am not necesarily paying that much attention to the architecture and stuff since I am concentrating on not dying (!), but I like their downtown. The people were so nice (at least everyone we encountered) and the city seemed pretty clean given the fact that 25,000 people were milling about. I absolutely love the National Underground Railroad Museum downtown -- this gives the city the historical edge that I love so much about St Louis. The marathon course, by the way, weaves out of downtown into a nearby park (Eden Park?) and then into some beautiful village-like spots before turning around and heading back downtown. I was impressed with the whole atmosphere -- and, again, nice people.



I will have to run the Louisville marathon before I can comment on that city!

Another thing Cincinnati has over St. Louis: a river which is beautifully developed on BOTH sides and NAVIGABLE by recreational boats. You can almost cross the river by boat-hopping during many of their summer festivals.

^

Those are some great observations - I had many of the same thoughts as I explored downtown Cincy during the last two days.



Their skyline looks great, for the reasons you mentioned. One difference that works in Cincy's favor is that although both downtowns are basically laid out east to west, the primary view of the skyline is from the south, whereas ours is usually viewed from the east. When you approach STL from the north or south, IMO, it looks much larger than when you come in from the east or west.



Cincy does an amazing job of lighting its downtown buildings. When we came out of Great American Ballpark after Saturday's game, it was cool to see so many buildings bathed in light. Our downtown, despite the great efforts of the Gateway Foundation in recent years to light up the Civil Courts Building and the Arch, is still really dark. More/better lighting conveys more of a feeling of safety, IMO.



Cincy has done a great job of preserving the smaller buildings that we've been so quick to demolish over the years (such as the buildings the Roberts Brothers want to tear down on Locust). There are lots of historic 2-4 story buildings that add a lot of diversity to the architectural stock. I also noticed that they've preserved older parking garages - the old-time garages with windows and architectural details that blend in much better than modern garages.



Cincy has WAY more retail than we do - it's not even close. The area around Fountain Square has Brooks Brothers, Saks, a newer Macy's, Jos A. Bank, Tiffany, etc. and restaurants like McCormack & Schmick's that we only have in the burbs here. I noticed two Walgreens and two CVSs. It seemed like there was a significantly larger number of bars and restaurants too. I agree that parts of their downtown do have a Clayton-y feel.



I didn't get the impression that there was as much residential there as there is here, although I could be wrong about that.



The infrastructure in Cincinnati is better than what we have - streets, sidewalks, landscaping, etc. is way nicer/in way better shape. Their downtown feels much denser, and there is less open/green space (which I prefer). On Saturday and Sunday mornings, there were lots of people out and about and the area had a very lively feel to it.



STL has made great strides, but I think we still have a ways to go before we can match what Cincinnati's downtown already has.

STLgasm wrote:I like Cincinnati, but St. Louis has a lot more going on. Every native Cincinnatian I talk to who lives here says that St. Louis is much more hip, and our neighborhoods are a lot more lively. Also, the density of St. Louis City stretches much farther than Cincinnati's. Not to mention, Cincy has no rail transit.

I would agree that overall, St. Louis is livelier than Cincinnati - at least from what I've seen and experienced - but just as far as downtowns go, Cincy has the edge IMO.

Gone Corporate wrote:And Louisville? It's the best city in the US that doesn't have a pro ball team, hands down.

Like Austin, Louisville does have a pro team. It just happens to be owned by a governmental entity.

Their plans for that new tower will really build the presence of Louisville, so much so that one can hope maybe people from outside the area will start enunciating Louisville correctly ("luah-vull", two syllables).

"Luah-vull" is three syllables. The correct local patois is "Lull-vull."



-- bonwich, Trinity High School, class of '76, sort of.

^

And for visitors, not only does it take research, it takes a car too (for the most part).



I forgot to mention that I was also impressed with Cincy's pedestrian bridge - the Purple People Bridge - over the Ohio River. I went jogging over it and checked out a little of Newport.

i have a lot of respect for Cincy, seems to be a great city and the ENTIRE region supports its downtown, which is vastly different from our region where at LEAST half the people bash downtown. We have a ways to go, but it IS happening. i can't wait to see what it looks like in 20 years. Other cities our size certainly do not have a competing "CBD" like we do with Clayton. but that's what makes us unique and large/ spread out. We all seem to agree on here that we want a DENSER and more vibrant downtown. Time for new leadership in the city. We want DENSITY not "green space" and turning the city into the the county. The goal should be opposite of the autocentric county. Slay has been great, but i'm often far more impressed with the comments on this site than that from him or other "leaders"..

I recently discovered the Deer Park Neighborhood in Louisville (to eat at Mark's Feed Store). An amazing place especially for a small city. Definately worth the visit to explore. I can't think of any neighborhood in St. Louis that's simiilar.

Matt wrote:I recently discovered the Deer Park Neighborhood in Louisville (to eat at Mark's Feed Store). An amazing place especially for a small city. Definately worth the visit to explore. I can't think of any neighborhood in St. Louis that's simiilar.

I am intrigued. Please describe this area.



I have passed through Louisville a couple of times (en route to West Virginia white water rafting) but I think next time I'll make a point of exploring off the interstate.

DeBaliviere wrote:I would agree that overall, St. Louis is livelier than Cincinnati - at least from what I've seen and experienced - but just as far as downtowns go, Cincy has the edge IMO.

I agree on both accounts.



It's like any comparison of Indianapolis to St. Louis. Sure, their downtown is much livelier, but IMHO, Indy's neighborhoods cannot compare to those in St. Louis.

I had good memories of Broadripple but was just back there over Memorial Day Weekend and was highly disappointed. It's absolutely true to say that outside Chicago, no other Midwestern city has neighborhoods like St. Louis.

dweebe wrote:Beyond Downtown and Broad Ripple, there's not really any other "interesting" neighborhoods in Indianapolis. If you're in to visiting a city and hitting a number of interesting neighborhoods: Indianapolis should be towards the bottom of your list.

I agree. Downtown Indianapolis is wonderful, but if we had to trade all of our interesting neighborhoods to get a more vibrant downtown, it's not a trade I'd want to make. Broad Ripple is okay for what it is, but compared to St. Louis neighborhoods I don't think it would rank all that high.



When comparing St. Louis to Indianapolis and Cincinnati, size matters. St. Louis' downtown is physically larger than the downtown areas of the aforementioned cities, which I think makes it more of a challenge to create a vibrant atmosphere here. I think we're on the right track with various nodes of activity that have developed in the last decade (Washington Avenue, OPO area, Locust Street, etc.), but it will just take some time to fill in the gaps. Once that happens I think there will be a lot of pleasantly surprised people out there.

ThreeOneFour wrote:I agree. Downtown Indianapolis is wonderful, but if we had to trade all of our interesting neighborhoods to get a more vibrant downtown, it's not a trade I'd want to make. Broad Ripple is okay for what it is, but compared to St. Louis neighborhoods I don't think it would rank all that high.



When comparing St. Louis to Indianapolis and Cincinnati, size matters. St. Louis' downtown is physically larger than the downtown areas of the aforementioned cities, which I think makes it more of a challenge to create a vibrant atmosphere here. I think we're on the right track with various nodes of activity that have developed in the last decade (Washington Avenue, OPO area, Locust Street, etc.), but it will just take some time to fill in the gaps. Once that happens I think there will be a lot of pleasantly surprised people out there.

Totally. We can always build a great downtown - and I think we're on our way - but it's a lot harder for other cities to replicate our various neighborhoods.

southsidepride wrote:

Matt wrote:I recently discovered the Deer Park Neighborhood in Louisville (to eat at Mark's Feed Store). An amazing place especially for a small city. Definately worth the visit to explore. I can't think of any neighborhood in St. Louis that's simiilar.

I am intrigued. Please describe this area.



I have passed through Louisville a couple of times (en route to West Virginia white water rafting) but I think next time I'll make a point of exploring off the interstate.

Haven't been there myself, but here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_Park,_Louisville