I think the Popular street bridge should be torn down along with the double decker highway all the way to market street interchange and 55 all the way south to Broadway by the lemp brewery. Then build a new 4 lane highway bridge from the new start of 55 that will connect s. Broadway 55 to rout 3 and 157 In Cahokia IL. This would would move Highways away from the core of the city and still perverse a highway crossing on the rivergoat314 wrote:I know some people are going to be mad at me for saying this, but I think Chouteaus Landing and the immediate southern part of downtown need to be flattened. Its a complete eyesore and gives the city a bad impression and since it severed by the freeways it will never get rehabbed. I would rather them tear those buildings down and build new with a solid plan. Not only is 70 rough until you get past Lucas and Hunt, but 55 from Downtown to Soulard is equally devastating. Our freeway infrastructure looks dated with the double decker viaducts and confusing interchanges, they definitely need rethinking. Also the railyards look unkept and overall horrible. Coming over the new bridge you see a lot of decay. Hopefully the full vision GRG plans come to fruition, because the riverfront looked like a post industrial wasteland before CAR started. The 1960s industrial facilities near the railyards are also major eyesores, I mean GROSS!
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I'm not "bashing" your comment. I just disagree that a handful of anecdotes from Atlanta constitutes "the rest of the nation". And since the majority of the nation has likely never driven through St. Louis their opinions are probably based on media representation rather than first-hand observation. I totally agree that parts of the city look like sh*t as viewed from the highway, but most of those areas are near the river and north along 70, while you were talking specifically about midtown. I also disagree that "stagnant", as in lack of new development, implies "sh*thole" which is what you seem to be saying. I've seen plenty of sh*tty highway views in "hot" cities like Denver, Atlanta, and even San Francisco. Frankly people from Atlanta have no room to talk when it comes to ugly urban scenery, but I'm not surprised that they would turn up their noses at St. Louis since their city is currently on the "hot" list, and since sh*tting on St. Louis is ever-fashionable.shadrach wrote:Normally I let you everyone disagree or bash my comments without a response or care. But this time I disagree and have to say. from my experience, you're wrong.
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I've lived in several sunbelt boom towns and they all shared a boosterish narrative that at times pushed locals, who are invariably from somewhere else, to put down other places that have something they don't, i.e., a civic and cultural life. It's the other side of the booster coin as it were. In their most private moments they realize that life in Atlanta, Dallas, or Charlotte is rather dull and lacking important social experiences, but they can't admit that publicly. They're invested in the boomtown narrative and have to support it to sustain the life they've built. Saying you're from St. Louis gives them an opportunity to indulge their agenda. Call them on it and they'll stop in my experience. You won't make friends with them of course, but you will remind them there is more to life than a plastic house surrounded by a golf course and time spent with people who are only exactly like them.shadrach wrote:Sorry. Yes they do!!!urban_dilettante wrote:I really doubt that people driving through St. Louis on 64/40 see the midtown and CWE skylines and think "dying, stagnant, rust-belt, sh*thole"
I was transferred down to Atlanta in 2007. When I told people I was from St. Louis, everyone, I mean EVERYONE, told me "I don't blame you for leaving that armpit of the nation." That's putting it nicely.
Second, people in Atlanta were fast to offer up something like—"We drove through St. Louis last summer, wow, what a depressing, stuck-in-time, shith*le of a city that is." The choice of words in my post was deliberate and from personal experience.
I'm not making this up, these comments were repeatedly, repeatedly, told to my face as if I hated STL and couldn't to get out.
Normally I let you everyone disagree or bash my comments without a response or care. But this time I disagree and have to say. from my experience, you're wrong.
Just to chime in here...Atlanta is a sh*tty city. Transportation is terrible and the culture/neighborhoods are bland, especially for a city its size. It's one of my least favorite cities I've ever been to...just barely in front of Dallas. I'd honestly rather live in Detroit.
Screw those people.
Screw those people.
^ Only plus to many of the new sunbelts are the huge skylines and newness, but unfortunately that is part of their appeal over places like St. Louis. Just for the record, Atlanta is the #1 city in the country for income disparity and has a lot of poverty/crime hidden its sprawl. I've also known many people go to Atlanta only to come back to St. Louis with a new found appreciation. For one, they say that in order to live in a safe and reasonably priced area you have to live in an area akin to Jefferson county, where Confederate flag drapped pick ups and long commutes are a regular fact of life. Most Atlantans live far away from the skyscrapers and fancy modern buildings, even though that was the original lure. I know a nurse who left BJC because she was sick of St. Louis, went to Atlanta got paid less and lived in a horrible area, came back to St. Louis tried to work at BJC again but her position had long been filled. Also, outside their central corridor, Atlanta looks like all the worst parts of North County spliced with Wentzville. Dallas is like a Clayton on steroids (with no historic charm), surrounded by Florissant as far as the eye can see. Houston may be one of the ugliest cities I've ever seen and would be Mobile without big oil, its only . Only high growth areas I can understand are Denver and DC, both are just beautiful regions with a lot to do.
The fact is St. Louis would be booming if we got better jobs and government reform, a lot of our ills could be solved in a relatively short time. I still think St. Louis is shedding its old economy, once that bottoms out all of the new jobs will contribute to net increases of population/economic growth. St. Louis is like an out of shape person, that is gaining muscle but losing a lot of fat, our weight is the same but we are getting healthier. Most of our new jobs are high skilled, high pay. The challenge will be getting over the stigma of St. Louis being a dying region. That may take a while and Ferguson sure didn't help. Pittsburgh is only recently shaking its burnt out steel mill image and its still losing people.
The fact is St. Louis would be booming if we got better jobs and government reform, a lot of our ills could be solved in a relatively short time. I still think St. Louis is shedding its old economy, once that bottoms out all of the new jobs will contribute to net increases of population/economic growth. St. Louis is like an out of shape person, that is gaining muscle but losing a lot of fat, our weight is the same but we are getting healthier. Most of our new jobs are high skilled, high pay. The challenge will be getting over the stigma of St. Louis being a dying region. That may take a while and Ferguson sure didn't help. Pittsburgh is only recently shaking its burnt out steel mill image and its still losing people.
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^ If we're talking City of Atlanta, I think it really is hard to criticize it too much.... with its majority black population, relative lack of Hispanic immigration and reasonable city limits, it is much different from sprawling sunbelt behemoths like Dallas, Houston and Phoenix and much more like Saint Louis. Like us, the City was in decline in the 70s and 80s and there probably wasn't too much difference in negative national perception between the two cities back then. But since then the City has been able to move forward with growth, which along with a number of cities, has really accelerated post-recession, It still has its issues with poverty, etc. but it is doing a lot of smart things as well and I wish we were enjoying a larger share of that growing prosperity and opportunity.
And we also have to realize that if we begin to boom like a lot of these other cities. living in our own Central Corridor will be increasingly unaffordable for many of natives. When increased growth comes here, the challenge will be to ensure that it lifts all boats as much as possible, Anyway, more well-designed new buildings, please!
And we also have to realize that if we begin to boom like a lot of these other cities. living in our own Central Corridor will be increasingly unaffordable for many of natives. When increased growth comes here, the challenge will be to ensure that it lifts all boats as much as possible, Anyway, more well-designed new buildings, please!
^ The city of Atlanta is not that impressive though, outside the Peachtree Corridor. I just find Atlanta to be overall, overrated and you can tell because they always have to make cheap shots and cities like #STL.
Yes, I do agree that the central corridor will be mostly unaffordable in the near future.
Yes, I do agree that the central corridor will be mostly unaffordable in the near future.
The views looking east from the top floors of this building are going to be amazing.
St. Louis won't boom as long as you have individuals in power and citizenry who stifle and limit development and economic growth.roger wyoming II wrote:And we also have to realize that if we begin to boom like a lot of these other cities. living in our own Central Corridor will be increasingly unaffordable for many of natives. When increased growth comes here, the challenge will be to ensure that it lifts all boats as much as possible, Anyway, more well-designed new buildings, please!
Also, let's face it, Missouri IS NOT a good economic partner, in my opinion, despite recent deals with Boeing and GM.
Other cities boom because they are in States (Georgia, Texas, North Carolina and increasingly Alabama and Tennessee etc.) that are willing to risk heavily incentivizing developments and corporate relocations.
At best, St. Louis can only hope to see modest growth - in my opinion - until Missouri decides that it wants to compete harder.
People are entitled to their opinions, but if Atlanta is a sh*tty city then what is St. Louis when measuring pros and cons against Atlanta? Come on.
I'm sorry, but I don't get the hate and nitpicking on Atlanta. No city or region is perfect, but in my opinion, Atlanta is not a sh*tty city or region. Yes, it is sprawled, but so is St. Louis. In fact, St. Louis has more of a donut hole effect than Atlanta. Atlanta has poverty in sections of the city, but St. Louis has poverty all over the region - white, black and other. Also, based on experience, Atlanta sees a lot more new affordable development in its more impoverished areas than St. Louis.
Also, it's transportation system is WAY more extensive than St. Louis'. St. Louis proposed a trolley and streetcar system before Atlanta, but ATL has completed their initial streetcar. St. Louis is still planning MetroLink expansions and is trying to get a streetcar off the ground.
Check out these Atlanta Photos.
Being a more structurally and technologically modern city certainly doesn't make Atlanta utopia, and it is not without social and racial problems, but I would say, hands down, that Atlanta has more advantages. It's growing population and economy proves it.
St. Louis and Missouri just need to keep trying to get their sh*t together.
I'm sorry, but I don't get the hate and nitpicking on Atlanta. No city or region is perfect, but in my opinion, Atlanta is not a sh*tty city or region. Yes, it is sprawled, but so is St. Louis. In fact, St. Louis has more of a donut hole effect than Atlanta. Atlanta has poverty in sections of the city, but St. Louis has poverty all over the region - white, black and other. Also, based on experience, Atlanta sees a lot more new affordable development in its more impoverished areas than St. Louis.
Also, it's transportation system is WAY more extensive than St. Louis'. St. Louis proposed a trolley and streetcar system before Atlanta, but ATL has completed their initial streetcar. St. Louis is still planning MetroLink expansions and is trying to get a streetcar off the ground.
Check out these Atlanta Photos.
Being a more structurally and technologically modern city certainly doesn't make Atlanta utopia, and it is not without social and racial problems, but I would say, hands down, that Atlanta has more advantages. It's growing population and economy proves it.
St. Louis and Missouri just need to keep trying to get their sh*t together.
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I was in Atlanta last week. I wouldn't want their traffic, but boy, the highway 85 corridor that cuts through downtown ATL sure was impressive looking.
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If you're talking about rail, no it's not. Metrolink has 46 miles of track and 37 stations. Marta's rail component has 47.6 miles of track and 38 stations. Atlanta's new streetcar runs on 2.7 miles of track. The Loop Trolley will run on 2.2 miles. The two rail systems are nearly identical extensiveness-wise. In terms of buses I don't know how the two compare but I wouldn't be surprised if Atlanta's bus system is more extensive.arch city wrote:Also, it's transportation system is WAY more extensive than St. Louis'.
Anyway, I've spent a little time in Atlanta and wasn't impressed, but I don't think it's a sh*tty city. It's just not my cup of tea aesthetically. But I get annoyed when people (in this case Atlantans per shadrach's comment above) fail to acknowledge the issues with their own city while denigrating others.
For what its worth, I've been to DC and San Francisco earlier this year. I had multiple conversations with strangers about me being from St. Louis, how they had been there recently, and thought the city was great. They didn't have a negative thing to say. I also met one person who didn't know where St. Louis or Missouri was. So there's that...
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And both connect to the airport. But while things may be similar from a mileage perspective, I think MARTA features more of a system than Metrolink as it serves both E/W and N/S alignments... until we get that crucial N/S line I will always think of our Metolink as a starter system.urban_dilettante wrote:If you're talking about rail, no it's not. Metrolink has 46 miles of track and 37 stations. Marta's rail component has 47.6 miles of track and 38 stations. Atlanta's new streetcar runs on 2.7 miles of track. The Loop Trolley will run on 2.2 miles. The two rail systems are nearly identical extensiveness-wise.arch city wrote:Also, it's transportation system is WAY more extensive than St. Louis'.
Also, MARTA is doing some cool things with TOD (although of course the overall development demands in Hotlanta makes that easier) and their starter streetcar, although definitely serving downtown and Fourth Ward tourism, has a more legitimate transportation network function than the Loop (Hopefully not a Folly) Trolley.
The rapid transit system is comparable in miles only, but Atlanta has four Marta lines to St. Louis' two so you can actually get to more places in Atlanta by heavy rail than MetroLink lightrail, which rolls through cornfields of Illinois. It's not a dig, it's just the truth.urban_dilettante wrote:If you're talking about rail, no it's not. Metrolink has 46 miles of track and 37 stations. Marta's rail component has 47.6 miles of track and 38 stations. Atlanta's new streetcar runs on 2.7 miles of track. The Loop Trolley will run on 2.2 miles. The two rail systems are nearly identical extensiveness-wise. In terms of buses I don't know how the two compare but I wouldn't be surprised if Atlanta's bus system is more extensive.arch city wrote:Also, it's transportation system is WAY more extensive than St. Louis'.
And although Marta's rail miles are comparable, Marta still outperforms MetroLink in overall ridership - daily and annual.
List of United States rapid transit systems by ridership (Heavy)
List of United States rapid transit systems by ridership (Light)
More people use Marta in Atlanta than people who use MetroLink in St. Louis. Atlanta has an extensive bus system (as it should) and Marta rail stretches into three counties – Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton whereas St. Charles, Jefferson and Madison counties refuse to have any MetroLink service. And it is my understanding that Marta just added bus service in Clayton County this month.
Although Jefferson and St. Charles keep plucking population from the central counties - namely St. Louis and St. Louis City - they are not a part of Metro, which is sad. St. Charles County is the second most populous county in the STL region.
Although MetroLink is an award-winning and fairly efficient system, I consider Marta to be a superior system. The ridership demonstrates it and Atlanta is also planning commuter rail.
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I just got back from a weekend in Atlanta, and didn't notice much practical difference between their transit and ours. If you're traveling along the train tracks it's fine, if not then good luck with the hourly bus service. We were hitting up the main tourist locations, a few of which are in the Olympic park. The couple that were not (the zoo and the natural history museum) required transfers to the bus. I felt like as a visitor, there was significantly less to do in the urban core; Forest Park on its own is much more entertaining, but the central corridor as a whole felt richer than urban Atlanta. Finding a place to eat lunch on Sunday was a nightmare.
Of course, most of the people who actually live in Atlanta aren't tourists.
Of course, most of the people who actually live in Atlanta aren't tourists.
Okay......MarkHaversham wrote:I just got back from a weekend in Atlanta, and didn't notice much practical difference between their transit and ours. If you're traveling along the train tracks it's fine, if not then good luck with the hourly bus service. We were hitting up the main tourist locations, a few of which are in the Olympic park. The couple that were not (the zoo and the natural history museum) required transfers to the bus. I felt like as a visitor, there was significantly less to do in the urban core; Forest Park on its own is much more entertaining, but the central corridor as a whole felt richer than urban Atlanta. Finding a place to eat lunch on Sunday was a nightmare.
Of course, most of the people who actually live in Atlanta aren't tourists.
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I'm just saying, in the grand scheme, I'm not losing any sleep over comparisons of StL to Atlanta.
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I'll be in Atlanta first week of June. It's been a few years so I'll come back with my revised impressions then.
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A couple new restaurants just opened near Peachtree Center; I didn't get to try them but they sounded interesting. One was the Juke Joint, southern cuisine with live music (and a cover charge for the main area) that was recommended to me. The other is a Braves-themed sports bar, Atlanta Braves All-Star Grill, with various baseball accoutrements like a pitching machine (the owner emphasized it wasn't a batting machine, whatever that means).urban_dilettante wrote:I'll be in Atlanta first week of June. It's been a few years so I'll come back with my revised impressions then.
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Thanks for the tip! The Braves Grill isn't really my thing but I'll check out the other place—will be staying close to Peachtree Center.MarkHaversham wrote:A couple new restaurants just opened near Peachtree Center; I didn't get to try them but they sounded interesting. One was the Juke Joint, southern cuisine with live music (and a cover charge for the main area) that was recommended to me. The other is a Braves-themed sports bar, Atlanta Braves All-Star Grill, with various baseball accoutrements like a pitching machine (the owner emphasized it wasn't a batting machine, whatever that means).urban_dilettante wrote:I'll be in Atlanta first week of June. It's been a few years so I'll come back with my revised impressions then.
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^ Seven stories set for soon!
http://nextstl.com/2015/06/stlcop-confi ... ak-ground/
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Target date is December 2016 completion
http://nextstl.com/2015/06/stlcop-confi ... ak-ground/
Target date is December 2016 completion